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I have been asked to assess the vehicle checks for the company I have recently started with, they currently do daily checks and this is failing as 80% of the workers only do them when it is to submit time sheet. It is a small company with 50 vans used for travel to and from site for electricians and plumbers. They currently use a paper check sheet. I have googled away and read infomation from the HSE but cannot get a definative answer on daily checks being law, only best practice. The company would like a monthly check but I am drawn to weekly. Surely the days of an old vehicle needing checking are gone? As our vehicles have sensors that tell us all when the vehicle is in need of attention, is the risk not lower especially with the use being for the cummute not the main task? I would appreciate any assistance on this, thanks Harry. Edited by user 19 May 2022 12:27:45(UTC)
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Harry, You won't find any H&S guidance of this as its more related to Department of Transport, as its related to the road vehicles. The key safety features (brakes, lights etc) are addressed through the MOT requirements, so these are ticked off. Daily checks are not a legal requirement. But as you state, best practice is to do them. But in the real world, who does a full check everytime they use their vehicle? So it's a balance. As to your point about the 'self checking' of modern cars I personally think it is very valid. Based on the above, a weekly or monthly documented check seems to be appropriate. I'm sure you will have some differences in opinion given over the next couple of days.
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Originally Posted by: Harry Taylor  Surely the days of an old vehicle needing checking are gone? As our vehicles have sensors that tell us all when the vehicle is in need of attention, is the risk not lower especially with the use being for the cummute not the main task?
Assumes the sensor is working, that it is giving an output and that it is received and acted upon.
Too much reliance on systems which more and more frequently go wrong. Whilst I will check tyres & fluids on a frequent basis (weekly or before a significant journey) my current employer seeks confirmation of company car maintenance once per month when mileage is submitted. Our delivery drivers meanwhile are expected to undertake a daily inspection prior to heading out.
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Originally Posted by: Harry Taylor Surely the days of an old vehicle needing checking are gone? As our vehicles have sensors that tell us all when the vehicle is in need of attention, is the risk not lower especially with the use being for the cummute not the main task?
Assumes the sensor is working, that it is giving an output and that it is received and acted upon.
Too much reliance on systems which more and more frequently go wrong. Whilst I will check tyres & fluids on a frequent basis (weekly or before a significant journey) my current employer seeks confirmation of company car maintenance once per month when mileage is submitted. Our delivery drivers meanwhile are expected to undertake a daily inspection prior to heading out.
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copmpany vans = PUWER so daily checks are a required part of that due diligence both to protect the employee and the company... I would tell you what the security images was but it's rude!
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Originally Posted by: stevedm copmpany vans = PUWER so daily checks are a required part of that due diligence both to protect the employee and the company... I would tell you what the security images was but it's rude!
Taken from the Guidance on PUWER Motor vehicles 21 Motor vehicles being used for work activities, which are not privately owned fall within the scope of PUWER. When these vehicles are used on public roads or in a public place, the more specific road traffic legislation takes precedence
Edited at by user 19 May 2022 13:49:13(UTC)
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this is work equipment - so check with your legal guys they will say different...
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Originally Posted by: stevedm this is work equipment - so check with your legal guys they will say different...
Sorry Steve i was an inspector for over 30 years - we never applied PUWER to vehicles on a public road
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Coming back to the OP from the PUWER guidance referenced by Brian: "Drivers should hold a Department for Transport driving licence and vehicles should be maintained to the normal standards required for use on the public highway, ie they should have an MOT certificate, where necessary, or be maintained to equivalent standards where statutory testing is not a legal requirement."
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Rank: Super forum user
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Coming back to the OP from the PUWER guidance referenced by Brian: "Drivers should hold a Department for Transport driving licence and vehicles should be maintained to the normal standards required for use on the public highway, ie they should have an MOT certificate, where necessary, or be maintained to equivalent standards where statutory testing is not a legal requirement."
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Originally Posted by: Brian Hagyard Originally Posted by: stevedm this is work equipment - so check with your legal guys they will say different...
Sorry Steve i was an inspector for over 30 years - we never applied PUWER to vehicles on a public road
well, I won't comment on that specifically, whether you did or not is not the point, the provision of work equipment does apply where else does the employee get the vehicle from?
We don't need to do pre-use checks, maint or anything else then?...not all of it applies but for pre-use checks that is the basis for making the guys do the check each shift/time they use the company vehicle...even an IOSH endorsed presentation says the same thing!!! Vehicles that are not private vehicles fall under PUWER for those hard of thinking slide 7 on IOSH pdf below...
https://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/ocs/800-899/803_69/index.htm
https://iosh.com/media/7859/workplace-transport-richard-greaves.pdf
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Originally Posted by: stevedm copmpany vans = PUWER so daily checks are a required part of that due diligence both to protect the
That doesn't follow. Where in PUWER does it mandate daily checks of all work equipment?
PUWER requires only that equipment that "exposed to conditions causing deterioration which is liable to result in dangerous situations is inspected at suitable intervals". There is nothing in PUWER to prevent you determining that the suitable intervals for a particular piece of equipment is weekly, monthly or even annually. (In fact, though not relevant to a motor vehicle, PUWER does not require periodic inspection of every piece of work equipment.)
And for those that are 'hard of thinking', note that the question was about the frequency of checks. Going off on a straw-man argument that accuses someone asking whether weekly checks are adequate of wanting to throw out all checks, all maintenance and all "anything else" is not really helpful, in my opinion. I haven't seen anyone proposing that a work-owned vehicle needs no control whatsoever.
I also note that both L22 and the HSE document cited above as supporting the notion that PUWER means vans will need daily inspection says "more specific road traffic legislation [will take/takes] precedence" over PUWER. The latter explicitly says "PUWER and LOLER will only apply to the parts of vehicles not covered by the MOT." Edited by user 20 May 2022 08:04:40(UTC)
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Most of us have a daily user check list for Plant and Machinery so what's the difference ?
I would think the old faithful, 'In Accordance with Manufacturers Recommendations' comes into play here somewhere,
What does the Owners/Drivers handbook advise ?
One thing that doesn't come up on pre-installed vehcile sensor checks is Tyre Tread depth, (AFAIK), so other than physically looking, how do you know.
The 'Frequency' of checks could be decided on on a mileage basis perhaps
I'd also be reminding all drivers of company provided vehicles that if there are any defects that affect the safety of the vehicle whilst they are driving, (bald tyres, no lights even no windscreen wash water) etc, they as the drivers will be penalised by the points and fines, so they should be reporting defects immediately, and if the vehicle is not compliant with the regs, it shouldn't be driven. (Yes, the company may also be fined etc), so it is in their interest to check the vehicle is safe to drive
Edited by user 20 May 2022 08:26:19(UTC)
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Wow, the discussion can turn quickly! Thank you for all your advice and some interesting reading. I am in my early years as a H&S profesional and I can see the benefits of asking the question in this enviroment, as I have already found the role to be very isolated. So having somewhere to turn will be of great benefit. Thank you again.
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1 user thanked Harry Taylor for this useful post.
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I have sent you a PM with some additional information Harry in case it helps. We record a walk round check each day for the basics - tyres/lights/fluids/vision (mirrors/windows) etc and a more detailed one each month. Vehicles are certainly a lot more reliable than they used to be and are often adourned with all mannner of internal automatic checks which are great but as ever - if for whatever they reason they don't work properly you will be assuming all is ok when the reality could be completely different - nothing beats a a set of eyes to give peace of mind in supprting the technological findings. As ever with PUWER the frequency of ispcetion will be defined by your risk assessment. Someone driving a 4x4 across rugged terrain every day might want to inspect the vehicle more often/vigorously than someone popping into the office a couple of times a week.
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We use the info here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/van-drivers-daily-walkaround-check/van-drivers-daily-walkaround-check We have found that moving from paper sheets (lots of admin and difficult to tell when they've been completed) to an app has noticeably improved the checks on our vehicles. We built our own in PowerApps and tweaked slightly - the written and video info on the website above don't quite match in places. Granted, there's still the possibility that someone will just tick everything to say that it's fine, without checking, but we've built in a feature that asks for one random check to be accompanied by a photo. Sorry - doesn't help with the question of when to do the checks, but might help get them done on time, whenever that is!
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