Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Smith24279  
#1 Posted : 28 September 2022 12:42:52(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Smith24279

im trying to set incident frequency rates targets and near miss frequency rate targets  for both construction and manufacturing ,  i have RIDDOR frequency rates , could amy members out ther share any company or set IFR and AFRs = thats for support and help 

peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 28 September 2022 13:49:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Smith 

As you have worked out RIDDOR stats are counted differently to e.g. OSHA stats for various types of "recordable", often summarised into incident rates.

You won't find reliable statistics for "near misses" for the simple reason that there is no agreed definition of a "near miss".

You could find statistics for recordable accident and incident rates in the US at the Department of Labor website which breaks the numbers down by sector and sub-sector. Whether this data of much help if you are in the UK is unlikely, not least since both numbers and rates are much higher in the US.

Even RIDDOR stats have to taken with a huge pinch of salt given the level of underreporting (or, since RIDDOR 2013 also underrecording of "Over 3 Day Injury" accidents.

To date I don't think anyone has published research data on underreporting since requirements changed in 2013, but under the previous legislation underreporting of accidents to employees was estimated to be about 50% and to the self-employed over 90%.

But even if you could get the numbers could you reasonably benchmark against stats for huge, diverse industries such as manufacturing and construction.

To take the latter:

Suppose you have two large Contractors each employing 1000 people, so at first sight like for like.

1. One effectively works as a Management Contractor, so almost all the higher risk tasks are done by sub-contractors. UNLESS their statistics include those for their supply chain, what they compile for their own employees SHOULD be very low numbers.

2. The other either decides to do most of the high risk work themselves OR deliberately keeps integrated stats (perhaps to compare project performance) so as to include supply chain incidents. What this Contractor compiles SHOULD be much higher numbers.

So comparing Contractor 1 with Contractor 2 is apples and pears.

Very similar problems arise when you look at the sub-contractors. 

One roofing contractor might do predominantly new build work - so you would expect all the precautions to be in place, not least as they have to be in place for trades working at lower levels. So the same scaffold protects the bricklayers AND provides edge protection for the roofing squad.

In contrast, another roofing contractor might focus mainly on repairs to existing roofs. It's a markedly differnt picture in terms of tasks, risks and reasonably practicable mitigations.

So, my Q to you - "What would you do with the information?"!!!

I KNOW it is popular to ask about accident statistics in e.g. prequalfication questionnaires or to provide such information when asking for some safety award, but usually the information is largely meaningless.

Very difficult to come to statistically signficant judgements on any trends in performance - whether up or down - since except for a huge organisation, you won't be able to detect a statistically significant trend in less than several years or more. 

...and even in a huge organisation the occasional disaster which might result in multiple fatalities or mega environmental damage is capable of being masked by large numbers of less severe incidents. Big corporations are adept at doing this in e.g. their "Sustainability Reports".

As example you can probably find the 2017 Sustainability Report for Vale (large multinational) online.

You will find their pretty graph which appears to show a decline in recordables. 

THEN, do a search for the word Fundao in the report. Not mentioned in the bit about HSE. It is mentioned because of the financial consequences. 

THEN, do a search on Google for the words Vale and Brumadinho. That came later so could not be reported in a 2017  report.

....and I could cite other examples!!!

Smith24279  
#3 Posted : 28 September 2022 14:15:36(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Smith24279

thank you peter for your responce 

achrn  
#4 Posted : 29 September 2022 09:22:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Not to detract anything from Peter's reply - I agree that all these statistics suffer from the difficulties of comparing like-with like - the best way I have found to generate sector-average figures is to pull two data sources together:

I don't use injury count from RIDDOR becasue our RIDDOR count is too low for any meaningful comparison.  You say you have these but for completeness they are at RIDIND – Reported injuries to employees and the self-employed in Great Britain - https://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/tables/

I use HSE Labour Force Survey https://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/lfs/index.htm which has incidence and rates of self-reported workplace non-fatal injury sustained in current or most recent job, by industry, for people working in the last 12 months Great Britain.  There is a table for Workplace injuries by Industry (LFSINJIND).

ONS dataset HOUR03 has Average hours worked by industry sector, so you can convert the per year data in the above into per million hours.

In all of the above, beware of the sector classifications - F for example is Costruction but is effectively only site-type activities, if you were looking for designers M (Professional, scientific and technical activities) is the one that includes architectural and engineering activities and related technical consultancy.

A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 29 September 2022 14:24:14(UTC)
Rank:: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Smith

Having looked at this post again I noticed 2 things:

First you were asking about “targets”- what do you mean by “targets”: what  incident frequency rates is  “acceptable” in your sector? Targets are very dangerous, since a) you should always be aiming as low as  possible and b) a zero target ( as opposed to an aspiration to have zero accidents) cannot be achieved in the real world unless you fix the numbers.

The second point is “near-miss frequency rates”. I have never  heard anyone collecting these as they are so easy to fiddle ( so we want a high level  of near-miss reporting, then just report every stumble, wobble, spillage or dropped object).

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 30/09/2022(UTC)
peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 30 September 2022 10:24:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Smith

I had missed the word "targets" in the posting. (Well spotted AK!)

I agree with AK for similar reasons to those they have given.

A Kurdziel  
#7 Posted : 30 September 2022 10:34:39(UTC)
Rank:: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

It was only because I'd had third cup of coffee!

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 30/09/2022(UTC)
Users browsing this topic
Guest (3)
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.