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Clarke34547  
#1 Posted : 21 November 2022 10:09:37(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Clarke34547

Good morning all

I am after some advice regarding a HSE investigation into dust exposure at a wood working mill. On the HSE's initial visit housekeeping at the site wasnt great and dust levels around the machines were not great. Subsequently the business:

- made some improvements to the LEV system and had additional testing done to show system was working effectively

- had vaccums installed into the extraction system to help with housekeeping 

- implemented a new daily and monthly cleaning regime

- had a professional dust survey carried out which showed dust samples were at less than 0.14mg/m3 on the static and personal samples taken

This is for softwoods only - NO hardwoods are processed

Despite the low dust levels the HSE are insisting on RPE to be used due to the 'as low as reasonably practicable” standard of management because softwoods are an asthmagen

Does anyone have any thoughts on this approach which seems excessive to me given the implications on introducing RPE into the workplace

Thanks

Eliot 

A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 21 November 2022 10:55:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

On the face of this it seems to go against the whole hierarchy of controls idea and the principle that PPE is only to be used as a last resort if you cannot control the risk in a better way.

 

 

From EH40

Softwood dust (if it is only softwood dust ) has a LTEL (8-hr TWA reference period) of 5 mg.m-3, with no STEL. It is classed as a  sensitiser. This what EH40 says about sensitisers: “Wherever it is reasonably practicable, exposure to substances that can cause occupational asthma should be prevented. Where this is not possible, the primary aim is to apply adequate standards of control to prevent workers from becoming hyper-responsive. For substances that can cause occupational asthma, COSHH requires that exposure be reduced to as low as is reasonably practicable. Activities giving rise to short-term peak concentrations should receive particular attention when risk management is being considered. Health surveillance is appropriate for all employees exposed or liable to be exposed to a substance which may cause occupational asthma and there should be appropriate consultation with an occupational health professional over the degree of risk and level of surveillance”.

Are you complying with that requirement? You seem to have reduced the levels well below the occupation exposure limit (to 0.14 mg.m-3).

Where and when are they are the HSE requesting that people wear RPE? What sort of RPE are the suggesting. Half face negative masks can only be worn for a few hours at a time. Are they insisting  on positive pressure masks?

Have they issued an improvement notice about this or this this just a suggestion from an industrial hygienist rather that a full on HSE inspector?

Finally. Is the person making this actually from the HSE; I have heard  stories about people claiming to be with the HSE when they are actually salespeople for RPE suppliers! ( this last point may be just a myth but it would not surprise me!)

 

Edited by user 21 November 2022 10:56:00(UTC)  | Reason: spellings

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 21/11/2022(UTC)
Clarke34547  
#3 Posted : 21 November 2022 11:45:37(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Clarke34547

Thanks for your response.

Yes this is from an HSE inspector. An improvement notice was issued initially and all of the actions I mentioned were then implemented including the survey to demonstrate the exposures were very low. I thought that would be the end of it, but the inspector is still insisting RPE is worn (at all times I assume as she hasnt said otherwise) and has suggested a further site visit to discuss her requirement.  

peter gotch  
#4 Posted : 21 November 2022 11:51:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Eliot

Not knowing how long you have been in the game (!) the "hierarchy of control" is now legally termed the more cumbersome "general principles of prevention" as set down in Schedule 1 of the Management Regs.

However there is no fundamental difference between the HoC measures that formed part of my basic OSH education and the GPP.

This sounds like ANOTHER example of an Inspector going gungho in the very welcome move by HSE to take a much closer interest in occupational health risks.

HSE started with silica, moved on to welding fume and now it is wood dust.

Each time it has published what are to an extent one size fits all diktats to guide front line Inspectors on the enforcement model and it seems that some Inspectors are taking their instructions too literally and making huge leaps between what has been found in various studies and what conditions may be at any specific workplace.

But in the workplace you are referring to it seems that the ducks are (now) all in the right order. 

You have results showing 0.14mg/m3 compared to an OEL of 5.0, so even if you assume that the 0.14 is on a "good day" and double it, you have exposure at about one twentieth of the OEL.

How far under the OEL does the Inspector think it is necessary to go before they conclude that you have done all that is reasonably practicable?!?!

It is possible that part of the Inspector's argument might be that the relevant "IARC Monologues" Nos 62 and 100C indicate that soft wood dust might be carcinogenic - at least in part as many mostly very old studies were unable to identify whether soft wood dust exposure might have been mixed with hard wood exposure. 

But what the IARC papers suggest is entirely irrelevant. COSHH is linked to the OELs in EH40 and that for "soft wood" does not classify dust as carcinogenic. But even if it did, you would still be faced with controlling exposure, so far as reasonably practicable as COSHH is not written for a variant of "one fibre can kill".

Has this Inspector dared to either serve of Notice of Contravention with a huge hourly rate bill, or a proper Notice (as legislated for in HSWA)?

If the answer to those QQ is NO, then you should probably politely tell the Inspector to go away.

In contrast, if they have served a NoC or possibly an Improvement Notice then you should consider challenging it!

In each case the Inspector SHOULD have enough evidence to support their contention that the law is being broken (or likely to be broken).

So, does the Inspector have back up in terms of a site specific report from one of HSE's tiny number of Occupational Hygiene specialist Inspectors and if they do is this specialist Inspector experienced or fairly low down on their learning curve?

HSE Inspectors do make mistakes and sometimes they can be and are successfully challenged.

....and even when the Inspector does everything right, sometimes the evidence just isn't there to support their intended enforcement action.

I remember following protocol. 3 samples from a tin clearly marked as "highly flammable" [days of old] - each sealed and then one to the factory occupier and two for me. One got sent to the Health and Safety Laboratory in Buxton for flammability testing. They couldn't get it to burn at the designated flashpoint [doesn't actually work like that but you get the drift]. So NO notice. May be the solvent in question had been mislabelled to overstate the risk or may be it was just an odd batch!!

In my experience there used to be a bit of a post mortem each time HSE enforcement got successfully challenged, so Inspectors used to make sure they had all bases covered. However I think there is much less rigour these days.

Edited by user 21 November 2022 11:53:21(UTC)  | Reason: Maths went slightly astray

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 21/11/2022(UTC)
Clarke34547  
#5 Posted : 21 November 2022 15:53:58(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Clarke34547

Thanks Peter

Yes an Improvement Notice has been issued (and fee for intervention already incurred)

In respect of challeging the Inspector, what would the best way be to do this? I have sent various emails to her explaining the results of the dust survey and implications / practicalities of introducing RPE compared to the miniscule reduction in risk. Would approaching her Principal Inspector be advised or is this likely to inflame the situation?

thanks 1 user thanked Clarke34547 for this useful post.
arunprakash on 27/11/2022(UTC)
HSSnail  
#6 Posted : 21 November 2022 16:39:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Hi Elliot

https://www.hse.gov.uk/fee-for-intervention/assets/docs/ffi-queries-dispute-process.pdf

The Inspector should have given you details on how to appeal the notice when it was served.

Its been six years since i left the enforcement side of H&S (LA not HSE - but i did a lot of joint working with HSE) and im shocked at the number of horror stories i am hearing about FFI. And not just from new inspectors. When i was doing joint training we were alsways told there was not an exact amount of money HSE was expected to raise - but they were expected to find material breaches at the majority of inspections or they would be told they were inspecting the wrong premises.

peter gotch  
#7 Posted : 21 November 2022 16:40:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Eliot

I would do something similar to when my employer (well actually me - as the covering letter was just sent to the company with no indication of which two legged person it was aimed at!) two Improvement Notices over 2 years after an incident where an Inspector had been threatening prosecuction both of the company and one of our employees.

So, you point out the issues with the Notice as you see them, suggest they might wish to withdraw the Notice and explain that in the meantime you are appealing against the Notice. 

You only have 21 days to appeal so you cannot wait on the HSE response to your letter before taking that step.

Once the appeal is lodged the Notice is suspended until an Industrial Tribunal makes its directions.

That gives time for the Inspector and their boss (in our case it was their boss' boss as the first line manager was on maternity leave) to consider their position.

Withdrawing the Notice is likely to be much less painful than having the Notice chucked out by the Tribunal.

Whilst all this is happening you might want to get a second opinion from an occupational hygienist but on the basis of what you have set out so far, I doubt that you need to do this.

You also need to object to the Notice of Contravention as you don't want to be forking out whatever the hourly rate is for any more of HSE's time than is necessary.

On the basis of what you have written an NoC was probably warranted at BEFORE improvements were made but NOT once those had been done - so the ££££ clock should have stopped ticking when the improvements had been made and YOU can demonstrate that what you have done has brought exposure down to a small fraction of the OEL.

Definitely time to read Sections 21 and 24 of HSWA again (which presupposes that you have previously studied Section 24!).

There is a small risk in this strategy - if the Tribunal rules in favour of HSE then that ££££ clock continues to tick but on the basis of what you have set out, I think it unlikely that the Tribunal would not dismiss the Notice.

So, Section 21:

The Inspector has to be of the opinion that the duty holder is or has been in breach of whatever legislation is cited in the Notice in circumstances where such breach(es) is likely to be repeated or to continue.

As the appellant, you need to be able to explain to the Tribunal the principle of "reasonable practicability" as that is the one issue where the burden of proof rests with the duty holder, but ONLY on the balance of probabilities.

What you are in effect doing is challenging the validity of the Inspector's opinion. You have the evidence, the Inspector does not (assuming there isn't something you haven't told us).

So, your evidence is that exposure is way below the OEL, so whatever the residual risk is VERY small.

Then you need to discuss with the Tribunal the distinction between the judgments in Edwards v National Coal Board (which will be HSE's default position) and Marshall v Gotham.

Throw in some stuff from R2P2 on the subject of various degrees of tolerability of risk and you should be just about home and dry.

Ultimately it is about what further reduction in risk you might achieve from providing, cleaning, maintaiing, replacing RPE + all the admin hassles that introduces against the costs in time, money and effort of that mitigation.

Tiny reduction in risk, big cost - ergo disproportionate (Marshall v Gotham) OR grossly disproportionate (Edwards v NCB) and not reasonably practicable.

It would be wise to enlist the help of a competent solicitor who knows about health and safety law in the process.

...and of course when the Notice is either withdrawn or dismissed then you can tell HSE to take back any invoices for NoC for the period following the improvements made.

The alternative is that you do what the Inspector says and have an ongoing problem until you stop the production or automate the processes.

So, in my opinion, you are better dealing with this head on. 

It was a little easier for us.- the Improvement Notices said that we didn't have systems to 

(a) fulfil our designer duties under CDM

(b) do risk assessments.

So, no issue of reasonable practicability - we either had the systems or we didn't and we had plenty of evidence to say that we did. 

Did take a 4 hour meeting before the Regional Director finally announced that the Notices were going to be withdrawn, but they knew this at the meeting and I knew that they knew that this was going to happen, but they went through the motions (possibly in an attempt to minimise the embarrassment of having to overrule their Inspector).

You do need to anticipate that HSE will send in people to do some sampling (in a belated attempt to gather the evidence that the Inspector should have had before writing out the NoC, let alone the Improvement Notice), but if your results are based on appropriate methods, you should be fine.

Finally, remember that appeals against HSE Notices are VERY rare. In 12 years in HSE I had two appeals against Improvement Notices and never against a Prohibition Notice. 

In the two cases, I asked the duty holder what their basis for appeal was. Both explained that they had every intention of complying but that I had given them a form and they thought they were required to complete it and send it off! Both appeals duly withdrawn, when I explained that it was their choice whether to appeal.

Please let us know what happens.

P

Edited by user 21 November 2022 16:42:48(UTC)  | Reason: Two typos

antbruce001  
#8 Posted : 22 November 2022 07:47:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
antbruce001

There is absolutely no way the HSE would dare prosecute you for not requiring your staff to wear RPE when you can demonstrate you have such low levels of exposure.

The argument they are making is that because wood dust is an asthmagen exposure has to be reduced to ALARP. This is true. However, this inspector has pushed the ALARP requirement to include the use of RPE in all circumstances - which is not only unreasonable but would be shot down by the courts.

If a company (lets say yours) was successfully prosecuted for not requiring RPE for wood dust when exposure levels were so so low, the courts would be saying (and if appealed this would become a legal precedent) that when it comes to exposure to hazardous substances that ALARP always required the provision of RPE regardless of the level of control achieved by other methods. As such, anyone who works with wood, or any other asthmagen, or carcinogenic, mutagenic or teratogenic substances must wear RPE at all times - regardless of all other controls provided or the potential for exposure to actually occur throughout the whole of mainland UK. This simply would not be acceptable.

The inspector has overstepped, likely based on what they think is best rather than a considered risk based approach. I would invite the inspector and their Principle Inspector to the site for a considered discussion of the matter.

Tony.

Pirellipete  
#9 Posted : 22 November 2022 08:53:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Pirellipete

We had a visit recently where the inspector picked us up for rope lashings on a scaffold access ladder:

Perfectly Acceptable

Also for using brooms to sweep up

Perfectly Acceptable if Vacuums are not practical and you are damping down/assessed the dust risk and implemented RPE if required

She was justifying the FFI and stating what was basically her 'opinion' on the Rolls Royce solution, where in fact a Ford Focus solution is perfectly acceptable according to their own H&S exec guidance notes

HSSnail  
#10 Posted : 22 November 2022 11:24:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Originally Posted by: Clarke34547 Go to Quoted Post

Thanks Peter

Yes an Improvement Notice has been issued (and fee for intervention already incurred)

In respect of challeging the Inspector,  Would approaching her Principal Inspector be advised or is this likely to inflame the situation?

Sorry forgot to add when i was an inspector i used to encourage people to challange a notice if they did not agree with it - if they won the challange then great i was wrong - but if something went pear shaped latter on at least i could show i had done my best. Obviously not all inspectors feel teh same.

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