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Angela1973  
#1 Posted : 14 February 2023 09:10:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Angela1973

Hi all,

Not been on here for a while. I have a question if someone can help.

We have a new building being constructed to house a simulator which will have an area on a raised platform for a control room.

Because this will be accessed by a few steps, it means that if we had a wheelchair user, they would not be able to access the platform.

However, due to space, we can't install a ramp, but could look at a wheelchair lift, although this would be at an extensive cost (basically not budgeted for in the cost of the build).

There is an option to have a portable chair lift which can be put into place and removed as needed, which is more cost effective, and potentially could be used in other spaces where access is not easy (older buildings / workshop type spaces).

I've looked at the building regs, and equality act requirements, but can't find anything that says it has to be a permanent solution, just that provision must be made.

Before the decision is made, is there any reason why a portable chair lift cannot be used to ensure access for a wheelchair user, rather than a permanent installation to satisfy the requirement to provide access?

Many thanks

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 14 February 2023 09:54:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Might be an idea to approach the designer/architect and ask them why they overlooked disabled access provision given this is their area of expertise and specialism.

Even if it is only to access the control room (rather than the simulator) is consideration being built in to the floor layout and positioning of control switches/panels to fit with those who cannot fully reach to the floor or five foot up a wall from their wheel chair?

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 14 February 2023 09:54:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Might be an idea to approach the designer/architect and ask them why they overlooked disabled access provision given this is their area of expertise and specialism.

Even if it is only to access the control room (rather than the simulator) is consideration being built in to the floor layout and positioning of control switches/panels to fit with those who cannot fully reach to the floor or five foot up a wall from their wheel chair?

Kate  
#4 Posted : 14 February 2023 10:11:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Bear in mind that when making provision for a wheelchair user to get in, you also need to make provision for them to get out in an emergency such as fire (whether that be the same equipment as used for access or something additional if the access equipment wouldn't be operable in fire conditions).

Angela1973  
#5 Posted : 14 February 2023 10:20:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Angela1973

Thanks both. I did ask the question about why the platform could not be floor level. It's a very big simulator (we need a tall build to house it) and the space available is limited, hence why a ramp could not work (it's demolition of an exisiting building, to house a new one, so the footprint of the building was limited by the other buildings either side. I believe the issue is that there needs to be electronics that will effectively sit under the platform (although I was not involved with the original design discussions).

The lift we are thinking of (portable) is not reliant on an electricity source, so could be used during an emergency evac. But my concern is would that be an acceptable 'reasonalbe adjustment' to ensure access for mobility impaired?

Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 14 February 2023 12:56:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Do you actually have employees or visitors who require reasonable adjustment or are you working on the problem as theoretical consideration for a new build?

If the latter that should have been addressed in the design brief & response.

If the former you should really be seeking their opinion as any claim over limited access would come from them as should their evacuation plan.

Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 14 February 2023 12:56:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Do you actually have employees or visitors who require reasonable adjustment or are you working on the problem as theoretical consideration for a new build?

If the latter that should have been addressed in the design brief & response.

If the former you should really be seeking their opinion as any claim over limited access would come from them as should their evacuation plan.

Angela1973  
#8 Posted : 14 February 2023 13:10:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Angela1973

Building construction is already in place and we don't have any employees who will work in the facility with any mobility impairments. 

However, we will have customers who come to witness tests, and as such, we may have a customer who may give us notice prior to attendance of a mobility impairment, or we may have a future requirement for an employee or a temporary need (e.g. broken leg), so the mobile chair lift will support having the provision in place when needed.

It's either that, or the argument for a permanent lift is put forward and the funds will need to be sourced.

Kate  
#9 Posted : 14 February 2023 17:25:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Thinking back, I can remember a not dissimilar situation.

A building was extended, including the creation of a balcony on the first floor on which to take customers and dignitaries on tours so that they could look down on the workshop below without having to go into it.

Perfectly good lifts already existed to the first floor, including an evacuation lift.

However the level of the balcony changed between the old and new parts of the building.  (No idea why the floors couldn't be at the same level!)  A short flight of steps was therefore designed in.

At the time there was discussion about wheelchair access.  Installing a proper lift was considered too expensive.  Instead it was proposed that a stairlift would be be installed.

Then the building work was value engineered and the stairlift was value engineered out, with the justification that the stairlift could be retrofitted later.

To the best of my knowledge, no stairlift was ever fitted with the consequence that the balcony remained inaccessible by wheelcahir.

firesafety101  
#10 Posted : 15 February 2023 11:07:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

This is very close to my heart as I have a disabled daughter who uses a wheelchair and a mobility scooter, depending on where she is going.

She is currently in college doing very well at three sciences and we think that is her future so laboratories and test areas may ber her workplace.

In our experience it is much easier and cost effective to put in place what you may need rather than what you hope you will not need.

To enable fast exit in case of fire a ramp of sorts will be required and there are companies 'out there' who can adapt for you, if you look.

The idea is to make the disabled person as comfortable as possible around other people and not to make them look and feel different

Hope this helps.

thanks 1 user thanked firesafety101 for this useful post.
Messey on 17/02/2023(UTC)
chris42  
#11 Posted : 16 February 2023 16:49:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

You say it is a tall room and not enough floor space for a ramp inside. Could the ramp be put outside the room and the doorway raised so from the doorway to the control room is flat with steps going down to the underside of the simulator. That way potential mobility impaired visitors would be able to access the control room and your current employees who don’t have mobility issues can use the steps. Ramps are so much cheaper and easier to maintain than lifts etc.

Just a thought, thinking outside the box or simulator room in this instance 😁

Chris

firesafety101  
#12 Posted : 20 February 2023 11:52:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Chris42 the problem with your suggestion is it is not future proof. You would unable to employ a wheelchair user to do the job, or you would even have to advertise the position to exclude wheelchair users.  Definately in trouble then 

chris42  
#13 Posted : 20 February 2023 13:28:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Not really, if you employ someone that uses a wheelchair, then you put the more expensive lift in when needed. You don’t have to exclude anyone, and I would not dream of suggesting you should. However, you can put off paying for the lift and its ongoing maintenance and inspection until such time you have to, and you may never have to. The suggestion at the moment is to put the lift in just in case there may be a wheelchair customer arrives (and may also never happen, but you would be ready with my suggestion) , where as an employee is a more planned thing.

Of course the other thing we don’t know is if the simulator due to its design and size by the sound of it, would allow for a wheelchair user employee anyway.

Chris

Roundtuit  
#14 Posted : 20 February 2023 14:24:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The route to failure is scattered with good intentions. New build is meant be accessible - no caveats.

When at some future stage a recruitment decision between two candidates comes down to one having associated significant adaptation costs the employer will likely be heading to employemnt tribunal.

If you do put budget money aside for a future event it will be drawn back as being unused that is if you can decide how much to put "aside" todays cost / the cost in 5, 10, 15, 20 years time?

What about product lead times? - not exactly an off the shelf next day delivery item.

What about raw materials? - not much steel leaving Ukraine at the moment.

Roundtuit  
#15 Posted : 20 February 2023 14:24:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The route to failure is scattered with good intentions. New build is meant be accessible - no caveats.

When at some future stage a recruitment decision between two candidates comes down to one having associated significant adaptation costs the employer will likely be heading to employemnt tribunal.

If you do put budget money aside for a future event it will be drawn back as being unused that is if you can decide how much to put "aside" todays cost / the cost in 5, 10, 15, 20 years time?

What about product lead times? - not exactly an off the shelf next day delivery item.

What about raw materials? - not much steel leaving Ukraine at the moment.

firesafety101  
#16 Posted : 28 February 2023 14:14:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Chris42, its all about Reasonable adjustments, a road I've been down too many times to remember.  Where there is a will there is a way, when. there is no will there is no way.

Good luck.

chris42  
#17 Posted : 02 March 2023 09:50:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Hi Firesafety101, yes I have followed some of your struggle, at least what you have decided to share, from School, University and even trips to France issues. It is hard to believe in this day and age you have to fight so much for public services to do the right thing.

However, the wording “Reasonable adjustments” could be discussed at extreme length without resolution. For instance the word “adjustments” mean you go from one condition to a different condition(s). Ie change, so this implies that it may start off wrong for the person with a disability, then change to something right if and when needed.

I did look up the requirement for a lift in a new building and it appears to be if there are two or more stories to the building. However, the op was not describing this, it is a single story with a raised platform with a control room on it. My suggestion was to effectively raise the entire floor by putting the ramp outside, so there would be absolutely no access issues for customers or employees (or problems in an evacuation). However, this would then mean the base of the simulator would be in a shallow pit. I have to be honest I did start off thinking if there is no room for a ramp how will they fit some fort of lift ( exactly what would that look like and I struggled to imagine it).

However, Roundtuit is absolutely correct there is a chance that in the future when they do get an employee who may want a job that requires access to the underside, may they be discriminated against. But there is that possibility anyway, sad to say. Yes my answer does require people to do the right thing in the future and as you have sown us over time this does not always happen. He is also correct the cost of implementing something will be more in 10 or 20 years time when needed, but we have all experienced the sorry your heating system, fire alarm system is too old and we cant get the parts or it is not economical to fix.

Don’t get me wrong there are some places where new build or not I consider it is an absolute requirement, so schools, uni, libraries, supermarkets any pubic accessible places. However, we also have to acknowledge that there are some jobs that someone in a wheel chair is just not practical, roofer. We are never going to suggest that every new home has an external lift for wheelchair access and all roof areas are flat. In a previous job we had some large hydraulic rams in 4 pits, to turn over very large steel plates. This has made me think should they have had wheelchair access in case someone needed to service / inspect the rams ! no not practical, possible I guess but seriously not practical.

I think there is also the financial side of H&S and the trick is to get it just right. If the OP works for say the MOD and it is a flight simulator for training, then perhaps there is unlimited money available and a deep desire to employ injured service personnel as well. But this could just as well be a small company offering a public customer experience and the cost of installing and maintaining / examining (LOLER), would make the whole project not viable (so now one gets a job, even in the building construction)

There is no perfect answer, and it may not be “PC” to say there can be some discrimination, but the law and sometimes being down to earth (no roof working) should put it, in its correct place. The real problem is that when the time comes to do the right thing, sometimes the spreadsheet of the bean counters, says no. I think therefore it is appropriate to openly discuss this topic and on a regular basis as what is reasonable changes.

Others may not agree in all or in part, but these are currently my views. Not sure the OP actually got their answer.

NB 2806 words so that is over 5 times the CPD requirement of a reflection.

peter gotch  
#18 Posted : 02 March 2023 15:49:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

I'm with Chris on this.

Some of the comments on this thread almost treat the issue of disability as "black and white" but the simple fact that the legislation calls for "reasonable adjustments" tells you that it is shades of grey and you have to consider each situation on its own merits.

Our local supermarket was built a long, long time ago. When a different chain bought it they spent £4m on its refurbishment and remembered to put in a couple of lifts.

What they forgot to do was put in a ramp access at ground floor footpath level and within a couple of days of the grand reopening of the shop under its new ownership it was shut down until "reasonable adjustments" were made.

For many typical wheelchair users the lifts were entirely irrelevant as the lifts gave access to the car park, which, somewhat unusually is on top of the shop, along with some flats.

So, in this case the scenario was towards one end of the spectrum. Absolutely obvious that in a very busy street, the supermarket has to cater for wheelchair users, the blind or partially sighted, the deaf or partially hearing and just about any other disability you could think of.

But in the scenario presented in this thread you have to consider how likely it is that a disabled person will apply for employment (or have other reason to need access to the raised platform), WHAT their disability might be AND when this may happen.

Of course it is USUALLY more expensive to retrofit the solution but NOT if the need is in 20 years time.

If the cost is X now but Y later, then you need to do some discounting to work out whether Y in say 10 years time is actually more ££ and other costs than X now.

This is no different to working out what is reasonably practicable over a time frame and most investment decisions include some variant of Cost Benefit Analysis before getting the go ahead.

So, you do your (very sophisticated) risk assessment and conclude that in the next 25 years, a hazard in the design poses a risk that is deemed likely to kill one person, seriously maim two people and cause minor injuries to 40 others.

So, the Value for Preventing a Fatality (VPF) is about £2m at 2023 prices according to UK Department for Transport figures.

The Value for Preventing an Injury (VPI) that serious maims is about £200,000 per person x two = £400k

The VPI for the less serious injuries is say £10k, so x 40 people = another £400k.

So, the total cost of the injuries you want to prevent over 25 years is about £2.8m.

...and to do what is reasonably practicable you have to show that your spend is NOT "disproprortionate" or NOT "grossly disproportionate".

So, YOU choose whatever Disproportionality Factor (DF) you want to apply to the £2.8m - HSE says in R2P2 that a DF of more than 10 is unlikely to be appropriate but I would suggest that usually a much smaller number would be more likely - perhaps 1.25 is you follow the "disprortionate" or say 2-4 if you go with the "grossly" so.

Let's go with a DF of 4, so now you need to be thinking of spending £11.2m NOW to prevent £2.8m loss mounting up over 25 YEARS.

The Value Engineering team are going to rip your analysis apart and point out that this facility will go through a number of upgrades in that 25 years, so perhaps you should delay part or all of your safety investment.

Exactly the same applies to this disability scenario.

You could go back to the drawing board and redesign the whole facility to make wheelchair access inherently easier OR you can spend a lot of money to sort the problem in the design NOW, OR you can put off the decision until it is relevant, knowing that the facility might NEVER need to be altered for this particular type of disability and that it is perhaps as likely that it will need to be adapted to take account of one or more OTHER types of disability.

Edited by user 02 March 2023 15:52:17(UTC)  | Reason: Minor edit

firesafety101  
#19 Posted : 02 March 2023 17:58:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I have a currently ongoing issue at my daughter's college where she is on a one year course of three sciences, leading to GCSE exams later in this college year.

There are experiments to do in a laboritory but she cannot access the worktop with bunson burners etc. and in the meantime her carer is doing the experiments while my daughter watches and takes notes.  This is unaccepteble and reasonable adjustments require her access to the equipment, i.e. the high worktop.  There is a lower table she has used but the Occupational Therapist (OT)  now says it is not suitable because it does not have an attached bunson burner.

We are months into attempting to source a 'rise and fall stool' with backrests, arm rests and a foot rest for her.  The collesge are responsible for providing this but haven't a clue, I am trying to help.

The OT is less than helpful as she is an Adult OT and never worked in schools or colleges.

The idea now is to utilise a computer/office chair raised to its full height, that was tried today and worked well.  Questions were asked about fire risk and it having castors that may cause the chair to move. Another option is to replace her manual wheelchair with a powered chair that rises and falls, she does not like change and wants to keep her manual chair.  If the powered chair is issued her wheelchair will be returned.  There are other issues like lifting it into/out of a car, she already has a scooter that 'lives' in her car and no room for something extra.

I believe fire retardent seat covers are the norm now, if not then they should be but they can be purchased.

Casters can be locked in position by the Carer, and unlocked when required.

You probably think this is a simple reasonable adjustment but believe me it is far from easy.

I will end this for now and appreciate any helpful ideas from our readers.

Bottom line is our daughter in on a one year course and it ends in May for teaching and there are no experiments in the exams so it is likely that any chair will be too late.  The next teaching year has been mentioned and more sciance experiments that this year, and they may be working toward sorting this out before September 2023.

Now then, I dare suggest this issue could have been prevented by the lab workbench having a lower section, maybe on an end, that has all the equipment installed with access for a wheelchair user. We have this in our kitchen where she can prepare food and bake cakes etc.

I will be suggesting this to the college, it is never too late but there will be a cost.

chris42  
#20 Posted : 03 March 2023 16:29:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Hi Firesafety101, I find it hard to believe that the University has not had to cater for someone in a wheelchair previously. We had the DDA for many years before the current legislation. This implies that they have not been taking their responsibility on board for some time.

I’m not sure about the use of an office chair, seems a bit of a poor solution. I think I would be concerned about escape in an emergency, as I guess she would have to transfer back to her wheelchair before escaping. In addition in order to raise it up those chairs would require someone to lift her as the lever is operated ( normally the user does this with their legs but she would not be able to.

Really, they say can’t use the table as the Bunsen burner is not fixed! They seriously can’t find a way to secure it to the table if needed. I know engineering in this country has gone, but gosh I hadn’t realised people had turned their brains off completely. How fixed does it need to be? Good quality double sided tape, glue, screwed with some brackets, Adjustable clamp (as used for woodworking), screws through any convenient holes. Are they just worried about damaging their table, in which case they should have thought about this before the year started.

It seems a sensible and quite reasonable for there to be a lower portion of the bench set up for wheelchair users. It is extremely likely there will be other people in the future that will also require this. I find it hard to believe that though there would be a cost, that it would be that much, especially if it is amortised over all the future people who will want to use it. As I note in my previous post, I consider public assess places, especially places of learning have no real excuse.

How much will the fine be from not providing reasonable adjustments as required by the Equality Act. If not from your experience, but the next or the next…

Wish you well with the fight you should not have to have, to get people to do the right thing.

Chris

chris42  
#21 Posted : 03 March 2023 16:39:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Perhaps you could get one of these to email the university to say they are thinking of making a visit, bet you would see movement! The best choice seems to be Chloe Smith.

https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/ministerial-disability-champions

Ministerial Disability Champions

Ministerial Disability Champions aim to ensure that their respective departments meet the commitments made in the National Disability Strategy, published in July 2021.

The first Ministerial Disability Champions were appointed in summer 2020 at the request of the Prime Minister.

Their role includes championing disabled people, and ensuring that their respective departments meet the commitments outlined in the National Disability Strategy.

The government committed in the strategy to publishing an annual report in summer 2022. This will outline the progress that has been made, including efforts to rebuild the economy and society following the COVID-19 pandemic. Ministerial Disability Champions will have direct input into the annual report.

The Ministerial Disability Champions are:

Lord Benyon – Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Rt Hon Simon Clarke MP – Chief Secretary to the Treasury

Leo Docherty MP – Minister for Veterans Affairs, Office of Veterans Affairs

Vicky Ford MP – Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Minister for Africa), Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office

Nigel Huddleston MP – Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport

Eddie Hughes MP – Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Rough Sleeping and Housing, Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities

Gillian Keegan MP – Minister of State for Care, Department of Health and Social Care

Rt Hon Penny Mordaunt MP – Minister of State for Trade Policy, Department for International Trade

Wendy Morton MP – Minister of State, Department for Transport

Chloe Smith MP – Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work, Department for Work and Pensions

Lord True CBE – Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Cabinet Office

thanks 1 user thanked chris42 for this useful post.
peter gotch on 04/03/2023(UTC)
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