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achrn  
#1 Posted : 09 March 2023 11:15:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

We have a city-centre office that has two fire exit routes, one with a final exit door out the front of the building onto the street which is the office address, and one out the back of the building into a narrow service road that is also a service road for a number of other buildings.  The fire exit is palstered with 'fire exit' signs.

Someone is routinely parking vans so tight to our building the fire door cannot open. It's a narrow road, so they are pulling the mirrors in and parking literally an inch from the wall - you can open the door a crack, but no way anyone is getting out the door.  This has started about the same time building work started in one of the buildings that also uses the service road.

Our landlord says nothing they can do about other people parking.

The city council say talk to the police.

The police say they don't deal with parking.

The fire brigade say they don't deal with parking.

Any suggestions?

Edited by user 09 March 2023 11:16:09(UTC)  | Reason: clarify potentially misread text

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 09 March 2023 12:39:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The police long since withdrew from parking so the traditional "Traffic Warden" is no longer employed instead councils enforce the parking restrictions they put in place.

If there are no restrictions on the lane the council will not become involved.

Can you install a large step or handrail?

Personally if I were observing a regular parker blocking the exit after having identified where they were "working" I would draft a letter pointing out their reckless action has the potential to endanger life and in the event a tragedy were to happen details (the vehicle and the businesses involved) would be passed to the relevant authorities.

It is not only ignorant but a negligent behaviour - 18 years "Gross Negligent"?

Or a quick call/email to the HSE with offending company details and a photograph or two.

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 09 March 2023 12:39:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The police long since withdrew from parking so the traditional "Traffic Warden" is no longer employed instead councils enforce the parking restrictions they put in place.

If there are no restrictions on the lane the council will not become involved.

Can you install a large step or handrail?

Personally if I were observing a regular parker blocking the exit after having identified where they were "working" I would draft a letter pointing out their reckless action has the potential to endanger life and in the event a tragedy were to happen details (the vehicle and the businesses involved) would be passed to the relevant authorities.

It is not only ignorant but a negligent behaviour - 18 years "Gross Negligent"?

Or a quick call/email to the HSE with offending company details and a photograph or two.

achrn  
#4 Posted : 09 March 2023 13:12:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

Or a quick call/email to the HSE with offending company details and a photograph or two.


Sorry, missed that from my list - HSE says talk to the council.

A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 09 March 2023 13:34:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Surprised  by the council response, assuming that the street in question is a public highway. They are usually only too happy to slap on the yellow lines.

The only things I can think of is claim for nuisance. You can then get an injunction ordering them to stop parking their cars there.  You could start with a solicitor’s letter (which of course you have to pay for) then escalate to publicity in the local press.

chris42  
#6 Posted : 09 March 2023 14:05:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

You have not mentioned this, but once you have worked out who it is could you just go and ask them not to block your fire exit that you are legally required to have. You could mention you have had contact with the fire brigade ( you don’t have to mention they will do zip), and that you would hate for their vehicle to be towed or accidentally damaged in a fire drill.

Chris

thanks 1 user thanked chris42 for this useful post.
Kate on 09/03/2023(UTC)
achrn  
#7 Posted : 09 March 2023 14:41:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Thanks all.

Yes, I was surprised that the council washed their hands of it quite as thoroughly as they did. 

We have not yet identified who it is - we don't have visibility into the lane from inside our building (that's one of the things that makes it particularly troublesome - no way to identifty the door is blocked until you actually get to it and can't open it).  The van(s) are not liveried, look like builders, but so far we haven't caught anyone in the act of parking or leaving.

I think, however, that setting someone to sit by the van until its owner returns might actually be the next step.

Messey  
#8 Posted : 09 March 2023 20:08:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Messey

You have my sympathy as when I was an Enforcing Officer in London, my patch had scores - perhaps 100s - of overheight single starcase premises that relied on escape route through neighbouring premises - either a yard/open space or often through the building or over the roof and inside next door.



When the neighbour unilaterally blocked them there was little we could do. In some cases, we had no alternative to ask the complainant to agree to not use a floor or part of a building in lieu of being served with a prohibition notice. Not a nice thing to do, but its not possible to turn a blind eye to these problems.  


Can I ask, assuming that final exit in question is required, what measures have you made to introduce control measures to keep relevant persons safe with your demise?

achrn  
#9 Posted : 10 March 2023 09:18:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: Messey Go to Quoted Post

Can I ask, assuming that final exit in question is required, what measures have you made to introduce control measures to keep relevant persons safe with your demise?


Right now we actually don't need it - we lease two floors of the building, but we're only using one of them (the other one is empty space) and even the one we are using is not at full capacity. Some of the other floors in our building are also vacant.  We meet our escape distances using only the front exit and with the number of people in the building the escape times are probably OK too (ours are OK in isolation - we did an unannounced drill for ourselves, but the landlord has declined to do a drill for the whole building so we can't be certain about what if the other tenants are on the move too).

As noted, we've done a drill for our staff, and told them not to use the possibly-blocked exit, but there has been some years of them using that in a drill, and there's still sigange pointing to it in the shared parts of the building, so it's not right to just do without it.

However, if we were to use our space or increase our headcount I think we'd need the second exit operational.

FWIW, we had a landlord block a fire exit on another city-centre building once and we closed our office for a week until they resolved it - we're willing to do that if necesary (though that was a smaller office - this one would be more disruptive).

chris42  
#10 Posted : 10 March 2023 09:41:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

If you don’t want confrontation, then perhaps just a couple of traffic cone with no parking on them placed either side of the door may work ( they may get moved though). You say they park tight to the building, I assume to allow other vehicles to pass without taking their mirrors off. Therefore, just moving them out a few inches may be deterrent enough. If you think cones will be stolen, then something that sticks out a little on the wall at wing mirror height (flower basket that bolts to the wall)

The other option is to park there yourselves for a few days if you can get there before them, to see if they find a better alternative ( they may not then bother to check after that).

Paint your own yellow lines (no one is enforcing anything anyway)

If it is builders doing work in the area, it may not last long anyway.

All just thinking out loud, may not be practical when at the sharp end.

Chris

thanks 1 user thanked chris42 for this useful post.
Kate on 10/03/2023(UTC)
grim72  
#11 Posted : 10 March 2023 09:45:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

From the original post it sounds as if it is the same person parking there? Out of interest have you tried opening the door while they are parked there? Of course this might result in damage to the vehicle parked there but that can't be helped if they are parked illegally? ;-) 

thanks 1 user thanked grim72 for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 10/03/2023(UTC)
Evans38004  
#12 Posted : 10 March 2023 10:47:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Evans38004

Not sure we should be condoning deliberate criminal damage on this website...

Kate  
#13 Posted : 10 March 2023 10:50:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I think we can advocate regular testing that final exit doors open properly.  Sometimes they are found to stick through long lack of use.

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
peter gotch on 10/03/2023(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#14 Posted : 10 March 2023 12:03:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The  Criminal Damage Act 1971, Section 5  allows “lawful excuse” as a defence, for example if you need to protect your own property sub section c) saying:

  if he destroyed or damaged or threatened to destroy or damage the property in question or… intended to use or cause or permit the use of something to destroy or damage it, in order to protect property belonging to himself or another or a right or interest in property which was or which he believed to be vested in himself or another, and at the time of the act or acts alleged to constitute the offence he believed—

  1. that the property, right or interest was in immediate need of protection; and
  2. that the means of protection adopted or proposed to be adopted were or would be reasonable having regard to all the circumstances.

(3)For the purposes of this section it is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held.

 

thanks 3 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
grim72 on 10/03/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 10/03/2023(UTC), thunderchild on 21/03/2023(UTC)
firesafety101  
#15 Posted : 22 March 2023 11:40:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Can you place a metal barrier big enough to prevent vehicles getting too close to the exit door allowing the door to open fully, you may need permission from someone though.

A Kurdziel  
#16 Posted : 23 March 2023 11:42:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

So, we collectively suggest that you:

  1. Find who the “narrow service road” belongs to. If it a public highway that has been adopted  by the local council then really it is their responsibility. If they are shirking this then you might as well tell them this.
  2. It might be a private road  in which case you need to find the owner who might be the landlord or their agents. Usually they are  very keen to put up signs and threaten to fine people who park on their land-money for old rope as far as they are concerned.
  3. Engage with who ever is parking regularly there. For a small fee the DVLA will inform you who the registered  keeper of a vehicle is. You can start polite and then escalate. A neighbour of mine who was sick and tired someone using her parking space( owned and paid for) to park their van despite being based several streets away. She finally put big notice on the vehicle’s windscreen explaining the situation. She used EvoStik to attached the notice to the windscreen. They got the message.
  4. Finally, lawyers…
firesafety101  
#17 Posted : 23 March 2023 12:34:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

So, we collectively suggest that you:

  1. Find who the “narrow service road” belongs to. If it a public highway that has been adopted  by the local council then really it is their responsibility. If they are shirking this then you might as well tell them this.
  2. It might be a private road  in which case you need to find the owner who might be the landlord or their agents. Usually they are  very keen to put up signs and threaten to fine people who park on their land-money for old rope as far as they are concerned.
  3. Engage with who ever is parking regularly there. For a small fee the DVLA will inform you who the registered  keeper of a vehicle is. You can start polite and then escalate. A neighbour of mine who was sick and tired someone using her parking space( owned and paid for) to park their van despite being based several streets away. She finally put big notice on the vehicle’s windscreen explaining the situation. She used EvoStik to attached the notice to the windscreen. They got the message.
  4. Finally, lawyers…
The above seems hard work and long winded whearas my "Barrier" would be a short sharp fix.

achrn  
#18 Posted : 24 May 2023 08:10:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

We seem to have resolved this issue, if anyone is interested.  I'm not sure what turned the tide, but after months of nagging facilities manager and landlord things seem to have improved.

It may be relevant that our lease is coming up to a break point and we considered exercising the break option because we considered the office was not fit for purpose because it had inadequate fire exits. There are other nearby offices with vacant space, so decanting elsewhere, while disruptive (60 staff to move, some fairly major IT - that office is our UK fallback IT hub) would not be catastrophic - it wouldn't be an empty threat.

However, someone is now engaging with the causes of the blocks and checking the exit is unobstructed has been added to responsibilities of security patrols (with some extyra visits for that purpose).

So, I don't have a silver bullet to report - basically people we were dealing with eventually got round to doing their jobs, and problem has gone away...

thanks 1 user thanked achrn for this useful post.
peter gotch on 24/05/2023(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#19 Posted : 24 May 2023 10:24:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

"basically people we were dealing with eventually got round to doing their jobs, and problem has gone away..." its amazing how people will suddenly fall inline if you threaten to take away their money!

 
thanks 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 24/05/2023(UTC), Monika R on 25/05/2023(UTC)
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