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Hi everyone, I am looking to get more buy-in from senior management for Health & Safety matters in my company, at present I feel they don't value what H&S contributes to the business and are more concerned with production and profits, has anyone ever been in this position before, how did you get them to listen and were there any drawbacks from doing so?
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Rank: Super forum user
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You need to find out why they don’t think that H&S has any relevance. Do they think that workplace accidents/work related ill heath and the like can’t happen in their business? Do they think that yes it can go wrong but we have insurance and we can weather any adverse affects when the proverbial hits the fan? Do they literally not care at all and if it goes wrong then they will pay themselves a fat bonus and do a runner leaving the poor H&S sod to pick up the pieces? The first two scenarios require that you explain to them what the results of poor health and safety mean in reality. If it’s the third scenario, then you probably best look for a job somewhere else.
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 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
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Rank: New forum user
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Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel  You need to find out why they don’t think that H&S has any relevance. Do they think that workplace accidents/work related ill heath and the like can’t happen in their business? Do they think that yes it can go wrong but we have insurance and we can weather any adverse affects when the proverbial hits the fan? Do they literally not care at all and if it goes wrong then they will pay themselves a fat bonus and do a runner leaving the poor H&S sod to pick up the pieces? The first two scenarios require that you explain to them what the results of poor health and safety mean in reality. If it’s the third scenario, then you probably best look for a job somewhere else.
I have been in the company for just shy of 18 months and they had no H&S staff before my arrival, so i have been brought in to raise the H&S standards in the company and i have acheived a lot in that time as there was a lot of things that needed changing.
They know that H&S is relevant as we have an ISO 9001 QMS in place so there has to be good level of H&S in place in order to continue winning business contracts. Some of my suggesations to improve H&S get dismissed or if its known that it will impact production and therefore profitability then its pushed to the side, so its kind of contradictory what theyre doing as to my face they agree that things must improve and they will support me and when I implement new policies and site rules but then I find they are the ones that are flouting the very policies or rules ive brought in to improve the h&s culture in the workplace. I have got onto them about this both face to face and via email but i cant exactly ban or discipline my boss from his own company can i?
Perhaps it is that they have insurance in place and feel they would be covered if the worst was to happen however I would never stand for such a reactive and lethargic approach to H&S.
I dont think that they dont care about H&S whatsoever i feel that they think that its my role to bring these things in to place but theyre happy for me to get onto the shop floor staff to abide by them but that theyre above the rules because they have worked this way for years, its simple things such as not wearing hi-viz or safety boots when out in the workshop or yard or not wearing a bump cap when up at height and i have toldthem this is invisible leadership as senior management you are supposed to be leading by example otherwise it makes my job that bit harder to get people to listen if they see those at the top disregarding what i am trying to set out. i have recently been doing toolbox talk on a positive h&s culture, put a poster on the h&s noticeboard, i am planning to hold a safety committee meeting at the end of the month to address this issue directly, i have put out questionnaires to the workshop staff to get their opinion on the safety culture in the company and the questions about management shows that for the most part they feel the exact same i do re: senior management's approach to h&s, something which i will be bringing up at the safety committee meeting so maybe then the penny will finally drop but a lot of the time i feel like im banging my head against a brick wall.
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Rank: Super forum user
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You have ISO 9001 QMS, which means that you must have H&S policies and the whole Plan Do Check Act thing going on. Have you been audited and have you had had feedback on ensuring that all of your policies etc are being properly managed. Even if you are not aiming for ISO 450001 if you have big gaps in your systems such as H&S policies not being fully adopted, you would be getting major non-compliances. Edited by user 16 March 2023 13:27:03(UTC)
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1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
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Hi Michael As regards AK's last input I think I would change the word "should" to "could". Whether or not an auditor raises a Non Conformance Report depends somewhat on how they audit. If they audit with a brief to get paid to accredit, then to some extent raising too many NCRs could be a recipe for losing business. Getting back to your original question, who will Chair your Safety Committee? If it's not one of the bosses then the workforce will have their (and your) perceptions reinforced!
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2 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
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You might be doing this already, so just some advice from me: I'm sure you know, but culture will not change over night, so it might take a while. You need to work with them, don't focus on the negatives (what can go wrong, fines, prosecutions etc) as like the work force, it will never happen to them in their mind.
Don't finger point, don't quote legislation (this will never win you friends). When putting in new processes, get everyone involved (never dismiss how much people like to be involved or consulted). If you can get Managers involved from the start and focus on the benifits of the process you will find it an easier sell. Small wins and small nudges. Make processes as sinple and easy to use as you can. I swapped paper forms to using QR codes and I have had so much more uptake, people using them and you get instant information and stats.
Took me 2 years to get some walkways put in as the MD didn't agree with them (don't ask). Stick with it.
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4 users thanked MrBrightside for this useful post.
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I agree with the above, its a very slow process - people get stuck in a culture and before you know it, you feel like you're surrounded by people who are convinced ALL change is bad!
In the past in your situation i've always started gently, found some £ benefit in whatever i was suggesting, this could have been because it improved a process or i'd go down the route of less accidents = less possible claims. helps them buy into it.
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1 user thanked Jonny95 for this useful post.
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Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel You have ISO 9001 QMS, which means that you must have H&S policies and the whole Plan Do Check Act thing going on. Have you been audited and have you had had feedback on ensuring that all of your policies etc are being properly managed. Even if you are not aiming for ISO 450001 if you have big gaps in your systems such as H&S policies not being fully adopted, you would be getting major non-compliances.
Yes we do have H&S policies in place and do use Plan Do Check Act cycle. We are currently mid-way through doing an internal audit of our ISO 9001 QMS. We had a client audit our QMS just last week however I am unsure how forensic they were when they did. We are aiming towards ISO 450001 and i do try and work close to the standard as possibly can with the limited resources available to me. I am sure there are many things that i and the company as a whole can improve on.
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Rank: New forum user
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Originally Posted by: peter gotch Hi Michael As regards AK's last input I think I would change the word "should" to "could". Whether or not an auditor raises a Non Conformance Report depends somewhat on how they audit. If they audit with a brief to get paid to accredit, then to some extent raising too many NCRs could be a recipe for losing business. Getting back to your original question, who will Chair your Safety Committee? If it's not one of the bosses then the workforce will have their (and your) perceptions reinforced!
Hi Peter We are due to be meeting with our auditors in the coming weeks so should find out how we measure up in our QMS and how our H&S policies stack up. It's the first time that a Safety Committee meeting has occured at the company, I was going to chair it but i think id be biting off more than i can chew so i would probably ask the MD to do chair it so it shows commitment to H&S from senior managemnt because as you say we would certainly have our perceptions reinforced if they didnt!
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2 users thanked michaelmcconalogue@hotmail.co.uk for this useful post.
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Originally Posted by: MrBrightside You might be doing this already, so just some advice from me: I'm sure you know, but culture will not change over night, so it might take a while. You need to work with them, don't focus on the negatives (what can go wrong, fines, prosecutions etc) as like the work force, it will never happen to them in their mind.
Don't finger point, don't quote legislation (this will never win you friends). When putting in new processes, get everyone involved (never dismiss how much people like to be involved or consulted). If you can get Managers involved from the start and focus on the benifits of the process you will find it an easier sell. Small wins and small nudges. Make processes as sinple and easy to use as you can. I swapped paper forms to using QR codes and I have had so much more uptake, people using them and you get instant information and stats.
Took me 2 years to get some walkways put in as the MD didn't agree with them (don't ask). Stick with it.
Yeah te culture is slowly but surely changing, the guys on the shop floor have remarked that things have markedly improved since i have come in so that is encouraging to hear at least, i recently put out a safety culture assessment questionnaire to garner opinion from the workshop staff and while the majority have noted there is improvement a lot of them have the same opinion on senior management not demonstrating strong leadership on h&s matters. I agree that focussing too much on negatives as i have had some directors speak utter hyperbole on some matters i have raised when trying to make a point on why something shouldnt be done a certain way, i try to involve as many people as i can if its relevant to them i will get their input. i recently implemented a new SSOW for the safe stacking of scrap metal as some NS staff just werent taken due care when doing so i involved the md, production manager, and workshop staff there was some difference of opinions but eventually we did get there in the end up! interested in your switch from paper forms to qr codes, i think that could potentially be of use in my place, is there any more info you could supply so i can look into that? slow and steady wins the race as they say i do get things in but does sometimes take a bit longer than i would like but like you say gotta stick with it!
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Rank: New forum user
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Originally Posted by: Jonny95 I agree with the above, its a very slow process - people get stuck in a culture and before you know it, you feel like you're surrounded by people who are convinced ALL change is bad!
In the past in your situation i've always started gently, found some £ benefit in whatever i was suggesting, this could have been because it improved a process or i'd go down the route of less accidents = less possible claims. helps them buy into it.
Hi Jonny,
Yes v much agree it is a v slow process, it can be a lonely job at times exactly for the reason you stated! Ive met much resistance to the new policies and change i have implemented for example the wearing of bump caps when on the machine beds, that eventually now has become the norm and is done habitually now thankfully! i find that toolbox talks defintely help me in that regard to really drive the message home to the guys on the shop floor. my challenge lies more in the office than the workshop at present though. like yourself the £ benefit is the best route to go down when dealing with directors as thats the language they love to converse in!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Morning Michael In most organisations trying to sell H&S via the £££ is unlikely to work for the simple reason that accidents occur infrequently, are rarely fully costed, and occupational ill health is usually in the future, so rarely costed at all. Further, most of the costs fall to the victims, their nearest and dearest and wider society rather than to the duty holder, usually the employer. So, if say the official Value for Preventing a severe Injury is say £200,000, the employer is unlikely to ending up paying more than £40,000 of that tab. In contrast what you are asking the employer to do might be costing £100k, £200k, £300k or even more, whether or not all at one time - AND the injury might not happen for another 5 years in which case its current value is less than when it happens. You could look at it in an entirely different way (and what you have already written suggests that you are doing this to some extent).... The optimal solution in terms of H&S will usually be the optimal solution from all perspectives. This does mean treating H&S as an integral part of "how things are done here" and NOT as an add on. Edited by user 17 March 2023 11:59:16(UTC)
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3 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
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Some of my suggesations to improve H&S get dismissed or if its known that it will impact production and therefore profitability then its pushed to the side, so its kind of contradictory what theyre doing as to my face they agree that things must improve and they will support me and when I implement new policies and site rules but then I find they are the ones that are flouting the very policies or rules ive brought in to improve the h&s culture in the workplace. I have got onto them about this both face to face and via email but i cant exactly ban or discipline my boss from his own company can i?
At the risk of being controversal, and bringing the wrath of all those Safety Practitioners out there, may I suggest that before looking at management's response to H&S (as seen above) you take a time out to look at your own application. Contrary to what you may have been told H&S is NOT your companies number one priority, productivety and profit ARE. Your role is to assist them in doing this, so far as reasonably practiable, safely. If the arrangement/suggestions/ you wish to have them implement has an adverse effect on productivity/profit then it may well be that it is YOU who have got it wrong, not them. And is therefore you that require a change in culture, not them.
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3 users thanked O'Donnell54548 for this useful post.
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I think that O'Donnell54548 has made a very good point. We talk about a positive H&S culture as if its just some form of fairy dust we can find on a shelf and scatter about the workplace. Culture is very intrinsic to the organisation you work in and can vary a great deal depending on what sort of business you are in with a highly bureaucratic organisation, where there are rules for everything probably being more amenable to H&S than some free-wheeling, go-getting business where profit and personal advancement are what it’s about. The secret to positive H&S is to align those objectives with the company’s existing culture. PS if I knew the secret of how to do that for every business then I would be very rich and famous
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5 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
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Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel I think that O'Donnell54548 has made a very good point. We talk about a positive H&S culture as if its just some form of fairy dust we can find on a shelf and scatter about the workplace. Culture is very intrinsic to the organisation you work in and can vary a great deal depending on what sort of business you are in with a highly bureaucratic organisation, where there are rules for everything probably being more amenable to H&S than some free-wheeling, go-getting business where profit and personal advancement are what it’s about. The secret to positive H&S is to align those objectives with the company’s existing culture. PS if I knew the secret of how to do that for every business then I would be very rich and famous
My own approach over the years, 30 and counting, has been to produce a fully costed business plan for safety. This is a format that most senior managers, in any industry, can relate to. This is how every other department (production, finance, training, etc) works at your place of employment.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Morning O'Donnell That appproach can work where you can identify "safety" improvements as being discrete. So, as example, you might have a business plan for the provision of PPE. But, if the problem is perhaps a poorly guarded machine, the solution will sometimes to be to invest in new equipment. Very rarely will that idea be sold simply on the basis of improved safety - but if the new machinery will be more cost effective that is what tips the balance. ....and in many organisations one of the biggest "safety" costs is training (which you identified separately). However, often the "safety" element is just part of the overall training to equip the workforce with the skills and knowledge that are needed for them to do their job effectively.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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H&S is always a fine balance to get things done in the right way, but where possible in line with production, not against it. Be mindful that change takes time - more than you think. Don't try to drive too much too soon. You have already had feedback that the staff on the shop floor have noticed a positive change. Take this. What you are doing is making a difference, just not as quickly as you think.
For the SLT my advice would be to encourage staff to consider requesting a formal H&S committee is formed. Another suggestion is to ask them to conduct a safety tour. Just half hour an hour or so (depending on size of you plant, once a quarter to walk round the site with you and/or a supervisor and engage with staff about H&S. This has no directs costs other than time, but may yield some very important feedback.
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…and if you do set up a H&S committee make sure that it is chaired/lead by a manager cos managers manage and H&S advisers just advise.
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H&S is always difficult to get the buy in, especially a the whole point is prevention. Good H&S Standards and policies prevent accidents, which prevent expensive claims. Quite often, you're not seen to be "fixing" things becuase they haven't happened. What I find is that a business needs to have things quantified, and quite often values attributing to them. It's super easy for the production manager to show how much money they have saved by reducing waste and increasing throughput, but it's more difficult for the H&S Manager to show how much they have saved when there was no cost there in the first place. In order to keep it relevant, and to increase buy-in, it is a good idea to include in your reports any costs others have had, or show trending reductions. Can you compare absenteeism over the 18 month period for example? Do you have customers that are requesting your adherence to the SEDEX and ETI codes of practice - perhaps they want a SMETA Audit.
Do you have feedback from any external consultants or service proividers (Fire Service Providers, etc.) that can help to boost the appeal, or even show cost savings against those contractors through better internal processes?
As someone else has already mentioned, the next level of buy-in is a wider H&S Committee to include staff reps and managers to bring everyone together in a managed H&S Meeting.
Remember though, if they didn't have the systems in place 18 months ago, there is buy in there. Improving it is always going to be difficult, but somewhere they had the buy-in to bring it to the forefront and recruit for it.
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