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Mark Whittall  
#1 Posted : 22 March 2023 10:50:30(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Mark Whittall

If an accident occurs on site whislt the business is under CDM who's responsibility does it fall under to report and investigate it. If it is that the PC does the investigation does he then need to share it with the client in the event of future claims from the injuried party

Edited by user 22 March 2023 11:04:33(UTC)  | Reason: Better explanation

firesafety101  
#2 Posted : 22 March 2023 11:34:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

IMHO it is the employer's responsibility to report.  The PC will need to make a record in the Accident Book and keep for as long as necessary.

Unless required on contract document the Client does not need to know.

RIDDOR.

Mark Whittall  
#3 Posted : 22 March 2023 11:48:08(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Mark Whittall

Thank you - does this still apply if the injuried person was a contractor that was bought in by the PC and who was working for an agency?  

peter gotch  
#4 Posted : 22 March 2023 11:57:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Mark

Do you mean "RIDDOR" reportable or all accidents?

If it is a RIDDOR reportable accident or other event, then RIDDOR 2013 tells you who is the "responsible person" is in Regulation 3:

Responsible person

3.—(1) In these Regulations, the “responsible person” is—

(a) in relation to an injury, death or dangerous occurrence reportable under regulation 4, 5, 6 or 7 or recordable under regulation 12(1)(b) involving—

       (i) an employee, that employee’s employer; or

       (ii) a person not at work or a self-employed person, or in relation to any other dangerous            occurrence, the person who by means of their carrying on any undertaking was in control of the premises where the reportable or recordable incident happened, at the time it happened; or CONTINUES

So, if the person is an employee then the employer. If the employee is employed by a sub-contractor, then that sub-contractor, though in practice many Principal Contractors end up doing it themselves particularly if they don't fully trust their subbies (and, in some cases, simply to have a handle on how many incidents are happening under their oversight).

If the injured party works for an Agency then it will depend on their terms of engagement as to whether they are employed by the Agency or self-employed.

If the person is self-employed, the person in control of the premises, which in this case is likely to be the Principal Contractor. NOTE that RIDDOR 2013 shifted the responsibility from the self-employed who previously were required to report their own injuries with HSE research indicated that in almost all cases they didn't (Underreporting circa 90%).

There is NO explicit duty to investigate ANYTHING under RIDDOR. However, the need for investigation of RIDDOR-reportable and other incidents is implicit under HSWA and, in particular, the duty under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 to review arrrangements for managing health and safety.

The Client may be in the frame so may well set out its requirements for communication of incidents on their site in Contract specifications and/or Pre Construction Information.

I would expect the Principal Contractor to set out its requirements for investigation in the Construction Phase Plab either directly or by cross-reference to other documentation.

Pirellipete  
#5 Posted : 23 March 2023 08:03:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Pirellipete

Hmmm,  nothwithstanding the obligation and duty to report and investigate, personally if I'm the PC for 'Fred Bloggs Homes', who is my client, I'd inform the client if only as a courtesy cos when something nasty hits the press or social media, it will be that someone got hurt on Fred Bloggs Homes site,  not that Billy Smith the PC had an accident on the site,

Just saves anyone being blindsided, and to not inform the client doesn't really help any 'trust' issues or a good working relationship,

Maybe, the client is part of the problem that created the accident by not fulfilling their duties as the client ?? so how can things improve etc

micklillarnie  
#6 Posted : 26 March 2023 09:07:18(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
micklillarnie

In terms of the duty to report a RIDDOR injury this is relatively clear in the regulations.

In regard to investigation I wouold suggest the following:

1. The PC would have included in the Construction Phase Plan the need for all accidents to be reported to them: This gives the implicit suggestion that accidents and required investigations will be subject to review by the PC. 

2. Any future claim by the injured individual will undoubtedly find its way to the PC and possibly the Client as they have the deepest pockets. How would this appear if neither party has a record of the investigation or the investigation is not completely 'unbiased' - I have seen plenty of draft investigations that conclude those to blame for the accident is the PC or Client, these poor investigations need to be challenged. 

3. Not all investigations are carried out by H&S Professionals, often seemingly minor injury investigations are carried out by works supervisors following a tick box form. These minor injuries can often come back to bite.

peter gotch  
#7 Posted : 26 March 2023 11:41:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Mick

Re your points 2 and 3.

2. I have seen plenty of investigations where the client or PC defaults to blaming the subcontractor and/or individuals at the front line. Probably more common that a subbie investigation trying to blame those higher up the food chain (partly for the simple reason that they are likely to be banned from the dining table).

3. Think you might be confusing the issue of line managers (at whatever level) doing investigations and a tick box approach. Just because OSH professionals are doing investigations doesn't mean that they don't tick boxes!!

Legislation and e.g. HSE guidance HSG65 implicitly says that line managers should own health and safety as an integral part of the line management function, and if they own H&S then they should also own the investigations, suppported as appropriate by H&S Advisers.

Most of the time, the line managers probably know more about the processes involved in any incident than the OSH people who might be the experts on e.g. the detailed requirements of whatever legislation is relevant.

It's probably likely that in many investigations the first time the H&S professional has ever looked at a process in detail is when the incident occurs and at that point, the H&S professional may be more likely (than those who know the process better) to apply hindsight bias.

micklillarnie  
#8 Posted : 26 March 2023 12:51:42(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
micklillarnie

Hi Peter

I take your points on board.

It is true that PC/Client sometimes take the view (often it is an approach taken at the very outset of the contract) that the subbie is responsible for everything H&S, and that they try to 'push' the blame down stream. My point was that the PC should be involved in incident investigations even if just a review. It should be a team effort - which unfortunately, often it is not.

As far as carrying out investigation is concerned, I take your point that the line manager/supervisor is the one who would be most knowledgable in gleening the details surrounding the incident/injury, but they often have competing demands. I was trying to make the point that often the initial steps in the investigation of incidents (that eventually turn out to be reportable) are often not seen as potential reportable by supervisor/line managers and thus the investigation that they carryout is basic. You might even say in some cases defensive. 

I accept your point that investigations carried out by H&S Professionals also tend to follow tick box straight jackets - based on regulatory/company requirements.

  

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