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RayAdamson123  
#1 Posted : 14 June 2023 20:51:14(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
RayAdamson123

Dearest all, I am wondering how you manage the situation of automatic fire alarms and non attending fire services. Our brigade no longer attend automatic activations. So Who checks for fire instead of the trained personnel from the fire service? What training should they get? What allowances are made for low occupancy buildings? What extra pay should be allowed for responders? How do you ensure enough trained staff are in the building at all times and what if they are not? What if those staff are involved in complicated processes eg, using machinery or chemicals that require to be made safe first? Does everyone just wait? Who is responsible if everyone is sent back into the building, only to find that there actually was a fire and now choking fumes are coursing down the corridors? What if a staff member refuses to be part of the responder team? Can they be disciplined? How does a building operate without a response team in place? Too many questions?! Does anyone have answers please? Many thanks, Raymond.
thanks 1 user thanked RayAdamson123 for this useful post.
John D C on 15/06/2023(UTC)
Messey  
#2 Posted : 15 June 2023 00:01:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Messey

First of all, with respect, I am detecting an almost panic in your questions. There is absolutely no need as there will be a solution.

At home, when your smoke detector operates, who checks if theirs a fire? Did they have special training? Is the task so high risk you would call 999?

Most automatic fire detection systems have one aim. To raise the alarm in the event of a fire and allow the occupants to follow their predetermined procedures to proceed to a place of safety.

For many years, 100s of thousands of hours of fire service time has been wasted dashing about to false alarms - some of hem will be known to be false alarms when the 999 call is made, but company procedures dictate the fire service is called. It is ridiculous

I was in the fire service for 32 years and know numerous occasions when local crews were out of an ‘AFA’ incident when a second fire call by someone in distress was received. 

All businesses should have an emergency plan of what to do in the even of a fire. In your case, it needs to amended to facilitate fire alarm activations.

It really is NOT rocket science to check a fire alarm’s activation. But it does need planning, preparation and training.

You will have managers and perhaps Fire Wardens. There is no reason either of these groups couldn’t be utilised for this role, perhaps backed up by any maintenance staff on site .

Payment for this role is a matter for your management. Do you already pay fire wardens? There is nothing in law to say they must be paid extra, but training must be carried out in the firms time.

Your fire alarm company will almost certainly provide training, instruction and notes for staff to understand how to interpret the fire alarm panel and how to silence and reset it. Its no more complicated than other bits of office IT such as photocopiers and PCs, so a receptionist or admin staff could do this after training

Staff that are used to check the actuation should report to the panel and determined where the actual head is located that has operated the alarm. Upon arrival at that location, there is usually an indicator light on the detector which will help identify it (although different models operate in different ways - your alarm engineer will be able to tell you) A search of that area should be made. Anything suspicious such as something not working - for example lights, something running hotter or noisier than it should, or ANY unexpected smell should result in a 999 call stating you suspect a fire.

The key is if there’s any doubt (at any time), make it a fire or suspected  incident via 999 as the fire service will attend this type of call

Its will usually be a false activation - maybe from an unknown source. The team (of at least 2 persons) should return to the panel and attempt to reset the system. It’s a good idea to wait a minute and then let staff come back in.

Although any staff should and could be used to check the area, they must be fit enough to do so. A manager should oversee the incident and be responsible for letting staff back in to carry on working

A log book should be kept recording the event with details of time, head and staff attending THIS IS A BRIEF SUMMARY of a typical response to a fire alarm activation. However, it is not complete as every place of work will be different 

You may wish to ask whoever does your Fire Risk Assessment to review the FRA and give advice re appropriate procedures 

Google can help. I just did a search and got scores of replies giving advice such as from Notts Fire & Rescue 

https://www.notts-fire.gov.uk/business-safety/supporting-business/unwanted-fire-signals/how-to-investigate-and-reset-your-fire-alarm/

Good luck! 

thanks 3 users thanked Messey for this useful post.
RayAdamson123 on 15/06/2023(UTC), RVThompson on 15/06/2023(UTC), Kate on 15/06/2023(UTC)
RayAdamson123  
#3 Posted : 15 June 2023 07:31:26(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
RayAdamson123

Hi messey. Thanks for the reply. You did detect an edge there. 😅 Go live date is 2 weeks and the background policies are still being fleshed out. As I'm reading through your reply and the policies, it would seem that they will attend on the interim then if requested? So it's the timetable that's the main issue, along with finding staff who will volunteer for the role. I don't take the home comparison, as we are familiar with our homes. The workplace is a large building with a couple of thousand occupants. It also has chemicals and flammables stored within. I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't search High rosh risk areas. I do totally understand the wasted resources and hazards to the public of blue light vehicles. Alarm engineers have yet to visit and demystify the flashy box. Many premises are in education, where the most likely false alarm is the manual activation but that's not much you can do about that. Cameras at call points etc. Many times we will know from other building users, what's happened, but wave this Change through without ensuring the policy's are actually in place would be wrong. So I guess what I'm after is knowing exactly what should be in place by the two week deadline. And what to do if the deadline passes without everything in place. Thanks again, More info and opinions welcome. Raymond
achrn  
#4 Posted : 15 June 2023 13:36:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

At my office:

Originally Posted by: Rayadamson123@gmail.com Go to Quoted Post
Who checks for fire instead of the trained personnel from the fire service?

If a fire has not been positively identified during the evacuation, two fire-wardens re-enter together and check the alarm panel (which is in sight of the front door and windows).  Those two then advise the others where they are going and those two go looking for the fire, remaining together and not putting themselves at risk.

Quote:
What training should they get?

Fire warden training.

Quote:
What allowances are made for low occupancy buildings?

none - our building is an office. It's lower than it was pre-covid, but there are no cavernous empty spaces / storage warehouse / whatever.

Quote:

What extra pay should be allowed for responders?

In my company none (for first aid or fire wardens).

Quote:

How do you ensure enough trained staff are in the building at all times and what if they are not?

We train enough to have an excess most days, monitor actual site attendance retrospectively and train more if it ever looks like we are heading towards might not have enough.  We now have about three times what we had pre-covid, to accomodate 'hybrid working'.

Quote:
What if those staff are involved in complicated processes eg, using machinery or chemicals that require to be made safe first? Does everyone just wait?

We don't have such a situation.  If we did we'd appoint different people to be fire wardens - there must be someone who can stop what they are doing.

Quote:
Who is responsible if everyone is sent back into the building, only to find that there actually was a fire and now choking fumes are coursing down the corridors?

I don't think this is a meaningful question.  Whoever the court judges was responsible when it examines it with the benefit of hindsight? Might be the fire warden, might be the board, might be the people that blindly walked into the fumes, might be the person wrote the procedure (which is me).

Quote:
What if a staff member refuses to be part of the responder team? Can they be disciplined?

Ours are all volunteers.  I'm fortunate to have never been short of volunteers.  Currently I have a waiting list of people who want to be first aider!

Quote:
How does a building operate without a response team in place?

I don't think it does.  Not a situation I've ever had.

firesafety101  
#5 Posted : 15 June 2023 15:02:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Hi everyone, just adding my two penneth.  In my opinion the most important part of the plan must be to evacuate when the fire alarm sounds.  If there are more than one assembly point you need communications between them.  Mobile phones will suffice unless in certain areas i.e. highly flammable liquid storage areas?

Fire Wardens should have a decent sense of smell and will know there is a fire when approaching it.  A large fire may be obvious.

Fire Wardens should use comms to advise on locations cleared or fire located.

Training in the use of fire extinguishers is essential if you wish the employees to attack a fire, otherwise back off  and meet the fire service and inform the fire location. 

My final point is from experience gained keep a close eye on contractors.  Have a Naked Flame Permit and get it completed and signed before hot work begins.  Ensure adequate fire fighting equipment is readily available and have the contractor maintain a Fire Watch at all times.  Check around the area one hour after hot work ends.

That includes plumbers and others who say they will only be a few minutes.   

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