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David Manson  
#1 Posted : 26 June 2023 08:20:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David Manson

Good morning everyone,

We are a steel fabricating company that needs to upgrade our loaidng and unlaoding bay. We have designed a stand-alone fixed metal platform which will be anchored to the concrete nase and protected from collison by the lorries. One or two workers will stand on the platform so they can more safely load and unload deliveries of steel columns. The design provides protection from falling in line with part K of the building regs and will be weight tested in-house using concrete one-tonne blocks.

Unfortunately we have not considered compliance with Building regs and British standards. We don't hold a certification for this kind of platform and I woulkd be grateful for any advice on what Building Regs or BS apply and will we have to have it "signed off" off by a certified engineer?

Any help will be appreciated!

Thaks

Kate  
#2 Posted : 26 June 2023 10:10:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

You've said it provides protection in accordance with Part K of the Building Regs so it is unclear what is meant by saying that compliance with Building Regs hasn't been considered.

I've no idea what if any British Standards might apply, but in any case, compliance with them is generally optional.  With a few exceptions where British Standards are referred to in legislation, you only have to comply with a British Standard if you claim to do so.

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David Manson on 26/06/2023(UTC)
peter gotch  
#3 Posted : 26 June 2023 10:21:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Morning David

Probably a question for a structural engineer or building surveyor.

.....and what you describe sounds to me like either an extension to the building or the construction of a "structure" in its own right and subject to CDM and, specifically, the Designer duties in CDM, perhaps most relevantly to your question Reg 9(2) including paragraph (c).

Regulation 9 Duties of designers


(1) A designer must not commence work in relation to a project unless
satisfied that the client is aware of the duties owed by the client under these Regulations.

(2) When preparing or modifying a design the designer must take into
account the general principles of prevention and any pre-construction information
to eliminate, so far as is reasonably practicable, foreseeable risks to the health or safety of any person—


(a) carrying out or liable to be affected by construction work;
(b) maintaining or cleaning a structure; or (c) using a structure designed as a workplace.


(3) If it is not possible to eliminate these risks, the designer must, so far as is
reasonably practicable—
(a) take steps to reduce or, if that is not possible, control the risks through
the subsequent design process;
(b) provide information about those risks to the principal designer; and
(c) ensure appropriate information is included in the health and safety file.
(4) A designer must take all reasonable steps to provide, with the design,
sufficient information about the design, construction or maintenance of the
structure, to adequately assist the client, other designers and contractors to comply with their duties under these Regulations.

I think that it would be reasonable to assume that a Designer with the skills, competence and experience that are mandatory under CDM, then they should know about the relevant requirements of Building Standards (and which BS standards to apply).

Edited by user 26 June 2023 10:24:26(UTC)  | Reason: Formatting issue

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David Manson on 26/06/2023(UTC)
David Manson  
#4 Posted : 26 June 2023 10:34:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David Manson

Thanks very much Kate and Peter,

To clarify one point, when I say we have considered protection under part K, I should add "in so far as we understand it" because we are fabricators rather than surveyors or structural designers.

Which brings it nicely to Peter's point. I hadn't even thought of the CDM Regs and we can't claim to meet the competence requirements for designers. 

I have contacted a speciualist fabricator for advice.

chris42  
#5 Posted : 26 June 2023 12:15:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

You will need to get it CE marked if it is a steel structure.

Chris

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David Manson on 26/06/2023(UTC)
David Manson  
#6 Posted : 26 June 2023 12:44:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David Manson

Good point about CE marking - that will presumably add inspections and maintenance to the mix.

Thank you 

Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 26 June 2023 12:49:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post
You will need to get it CE marked if it is a steel structure.

For the GB market we are meant to be using UKCA for conformity assessment (harmonised or designated standards are still the same thing, at present).

Looking through the list of Construction Product Regulation Standards the only one that matches by title: EN 1090-1:2009+A1:2011 Execution of steel structures and aluminium structures - Part 1: Requirements for conformity assessment of structural components. In its scope specifically mentions structural performance as components or kits placed on the market as construction products.

Whilst there is a need for strength in a loading bay it is not intrinsic to structural integrity of a construction.

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David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC), David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 26 June 2023 12:49:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post
You will need to get it CE marked if it is a steel structure.

For the GB market we are meant to be using UKCA for conformity assessment (harmonised or designated standards are still the same thing, at present).

Looking through the list of Construction Product Regulation Standards the only one that matches by title: EN 1090-1:2009+A1:2011 Execution of steel structures and aluminium structures - Part 1: Requirements for conformity assessment of structural components. In its scope specifically mentions structural performance as components or kits placed on the market as construction products.

Whilst there is a need for strength in a loading bay it is not intrinsic to structural integrity of a construction.

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David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC), David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC)
Kate  
#9 Posted : 26 June 2023 13:31:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

CE marking is still acceptable up to the end of next year (2024) instead of UKCA.

Edited by user 26 June 2023 13:40:00(UTC)  | Reason: Correction to year

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David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC)
Kate  
#10 Posted : 26 June 2023 13:39:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

The list of things that require CE / UKCA marking is here:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ce-marking

If it's not on the list, then it can't be CE marked.

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David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 26 June 2023 14:36:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: Kate Go to Quoted Post
CE marking is still acceptable up to the end of next year (2024) instead of UKCA.

Very much dependent upon which "New Approach Directive" the goods are listed under.

Construction Products can currently remain CE on the GB market until 30th June 2025

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/construction-products-regulation-in-great-britain

Given this is a further extension due to limitations with test facilities only a foolish market supplier is waiting for the 11th hour to adopt UKCA (an assessment that should have been in place for 1st January 2021).

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Roundtuit  
#12 Posted : 26 June 2023 14:36:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: Kate Go to Quoted Post
CE marking is still acceptable up to the end of next year (2024) instead of UKCA.

Very much dependent upon which "New Approach Directive" the goods are listed under.

Construction Products can currently remain CE on the GB market until 30th June 2025

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/construction-products-regulation-in-great-britain

Given this is a further extension due to limitations with test facilities only a foolish market supplier is waiting for the 11th hour to adopt UKCA (an assessment that should have been in place for 1st January 2021).

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David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC), David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC)
peter gotch  
#13 Posted : 26 June 2023 17:03:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi David

Much of this comes down to fundamental principles.

I don't suppose there are many OSH professionals around the World who think that it was OK for the Titan to take paying guests to the bottom of the ocean in a submersible that apparently had had no independent design checks.

Now, let's suppose that the most hard line Brexiteers get their way and got CDM removed from the statute book, which is not improbable. Explanation at foot of this posting.

We would be left with duties on you as the occupier of the premises under Section 2 of HSWA towards your staff working on this extension, and under Section 3 to others interfacing with it e.g. as the drivers of delivery vehicles who are either employed by other companies or self-employed. [I could throw in Section 4 but that would just unnecessarily complicate the scenario]. 

Similar duties on e.g. the designer of the "structure".

All subject to the qualification of "reasonably practicable".

Which implicitly dictates doing a risk assessment.

Which tells you, inter alia, that the risks include the structure collapsing either because it is simply not fit for purpose, or because it is not protected from collapse arising from vehicular impact.

....and if there is a BS or other industry standard that is routinely implemented then compliance with that standard has become "reasonably practicable" even if it wasn't when the standard was originally introduced. 

So the designer needs to work out what is needed to stop the structure collapsing under its own weight and what impact protection it needs.

....and very difficult to argue that it would not be reasonably practicable to insist that someone verified the design.

So, as the person procuring the design you have a duty to tell the designer what the parameters are - including what size of vehicle this platform will potentially be used with, and what is or will be in place to reduce the impact loading or to require the design to incorporate mitigations.

The designer SHOULD know what will prevent an HGV travelling at a maximum speed of X mph and whilst having a gross weight of Y tonnes from damaging the platform to the extent that it is liable to be the cause of injury

- and you probably want the design to do more - to prevent damage that is costly to repair BEFORE it is liable to be a cause of injury. 

So, I think that Sections 2 and 3 implicitly say that the design comes with details of how all this will be achieved (and then, of course, that the structure is constructed to the design!).

Ditto that the design needs verification whether by a check in the design house or independently and a BS or other standard might indicate which is appropriate (and implicitly "reasonably practicable".

There are standards for most things! As example there is a standard to tell someone putting out typical temporary road signs how much ballast or equivalent to use to stop the sign blowing over in the wind. The standard recognises that the wind speed which should be catered for is higher in a remote exposed location than in an urban environment. The reason why we all see so many temporary road signs lying on their faces is that the ballast is either not put on, or is insufficient for the local conditions.

So, I could almost guarantee that there is a standard to tell the designer that if they are going to use concrete bollards to stop the HGV demolishing this platform what the size and positionnig should be (or a range of options).

Demise of CDM?

Section 1(2) of HSWA limits the ability of a Government to deregulate occupational health and safety legislation.

Whatever Regulations are made must be such as to "maintain or improve" the standards achieved by legislation in place.

That DOESN'T mean you can't deregulate. 

If the legislation has only had impact to a standard LESS than required in the legislation then whatever replaces it only has to require what has been achieved.

CDM 2015 has four Parts. Part 4 is sacrosanct as it is a consolidation of what was previously incorporated in bits of the four codes of Construction Regulations 1961 and 1966,  then consolidated into the Construction (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulatons 1996. Everything entirely achievable and thus if Part 4 were to be revoked it would have to be reinstated in broadly similar wording.

Part 1 is the boring bit, inclusive of the all important "definitions" some of which would naturally fall if CDM 2015 were to be revoked and replaced with a slimmed down iteration.

Which leaves Parts 2 and 3. The management aspects which are a relatively minor revision of what was in place in CDM 1994, and then mostly consolidated into CDM 2007 when a decision was taken to stick CDM and CHSWR 1996 together by the introduction of a Part 4. 

If Parts 2 and 3 have NOT had the intended impact then it is entirely possibly to revoke them.

Enforcement of Parts 2 and 3 of CDM 2007 and 2015 has been almost entirely absent, as was enforcement of the management provisions in the entirety of CDM 1994.

In simple terms, enforcement since CDM 1994 came into force on 31 March 1995 has been very heavily skewed to going after Contractors. Specifically enforcement of CDM 2007/2015 has been heavily skewed to the requirements of Part 4.

In other words, what has happened is that usually Contractors have been given Notices or have been prosecuted for offences for breach of requirements that are worded in almost exactly the same words as before anyone drafted the first iteration of CDM.

P

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David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#14 Posted : 26 June 2023 19:01:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

CDM is alive and well and beating at the heart of the Building Safety Act.

We even have BSI writing competency standards for the principals (Designer / Contractor)

captcha kjeu

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peter gotch on 27/06/2023(UTC), David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 27/06/2023(UTC), David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#15 Posted : 26 June 2023 19:01:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

CDM is alive and well and beating at the heart of the Building Safety Act.

We even have BSI writing competency standards for the principals (Designer / Contractor)

captcha kjeu

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peter gotch  
#16 Posted : 27 June 2023 10:39:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Morning Roundtuit

Absolutely but there is already a debate as to whether the Building Safety Act derived roles will be effective, particularly as regards the Principal Designer who HSE assumes will usually double up as both CDM and BSA PD.

Of course, HSE decided that "competency" was a dirty word and so removed it from CDM 2015, replacing it with ""skills, knowledge and experience and where relevant "organisational capability".

In my simplistic brain, SKE + organisational capability is a rather long winded way of paraphrasing the dirty word "competency" - not least as it is the words used in the Approved Code of Practice and guidance (L144) which supported CDM 2007 to advise on how to assess "competency" without unnecessary blue tape.

So, CDM works on some projects, usually when the Client and each of the key members of their supply chain know what they are doing and intend to comply - but then they probably would do something very similar if faced by requirements in HSWA if CDM had never been invented or for its management requirements to be scrapped.

At the other end of the spectrum are the cowboys - Clients, Designers, Contractors - didn't comply before CDM, still don't comply and are very unlikely to get caught and even if they do face small penalties.

So, the only target group for CDM was really the ones in the middle. Not as well versed as optimal but probably wanted to do roughly the right thing and the evidence is that CDM has not really done much to improve the planning and execution of construction projects for this band.

...and exactly the same is likely to be the case under BSA.

UNLESS HM Government commits substantial resources to give the regulator enough sets of teeth, so that HSE can do what it said it was going to do in 1994 and target the key duty holders at the early stages of projects, a policy that proved to be empty rhetoric.

I was working in a major Design consultancy so fully expected the knock on the door for some proactive HSE attention. Never happened..

In simple terms, partly as a result of being burnt, HSE recognised that it didn't have the skill set in sufficient quantity to question what e.g. Designers were doing BEFORE something on a project broke.

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David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC)
peter gotch  
#17 Posted : 27 June 2023 14:00:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

....and whilst cognisant that the discussion on this thread has veered a bit from its starting point, this is interesting.

Amendment 467D to Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill to Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill - Parliamentary Bills - UK Parliament

What is not clear is whether this is a recognition that HSE is unlikely to be competent to enforce the legislation or an amendment proposed for some other reason.

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David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC)
chris42  
#18 Posted : 28 June 2023 14:23:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Not on the list above however

BS EN 1090 is one such harmonised standard which covers constructional steel and aluminium. Since July 2014, products within the scope of this standard must be CE Marked when released to market.

My understanding even things like stairs and landings etc require CE marking so a platform would. Yes can still be CE Marked until mid 2025.

Chris

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David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#19 Posted : 28 June 2023 17:08:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post
covers constructional steel and aluminium

it covers structural steel and aluminium for construction purposes

Title as it appears on the Designated Standards List or on the CEN listing for harmonised standards

Execution of steel structures and aluminium structures — Part 1: Requirements for conformity assessment of structural components

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Roundtuit  
#20 Posted : 28 June 2023 17:08:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post
covers constructional steel and aluminium

it covers structural steel and aluminium for construction purposes

Title as it appears on the Designated Standards List or on the CEN listing for harmonised standards

Execution of steel structures and aluminium structures — Part 1: Requirements for conformity assessment of structural components

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chris42  
#21 Posted : 29 June 2023 09:31:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Sorry Roundtuit, not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with the Steel platform being structural steelwork. I think it is and so do steelwork companies on the net, eg sample below. No affiliation to them. The OP can decide for themselves.

https://www.bradfabs.co.uk/service/-ce-approved-steel-fabrication-company--legal-requirement-since-2014

Extract

BS EN 1090 CE marking was passed in 2014 applying to all structural steel fabrication works (including balconies, staircases, canopies, fire escapes, balustrade) meaning any company or person making products in steel MUST comply to

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David Manson on 30/06/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#22 Posted : 29 June 2023 10:37:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Chris I am disagreeing as you cite a company web site as authority (how often do we advise on these forums to check hearsay at the source?)

S.I. 1991 No. 1620 The Construction Products Regulations 1991 brought 89/106/EEC The Construction Products Directive on to UK statute which as one the New Approach Directives mandates conformity assessment and application of the EC mark to a product – since 1991

S.I. 1994 No. 3051 The Construction Products (amendment) Regulations 1994 adjusted the wording to change “EC mark” to “CE marking”

Over time 89/106/EEC was replaced by EU 305/2011 The Construction Products Regulations which were enacted as S.I. 2013 No. 1387 The Construction Products Regulations 2013 which entered force 1st July 2013 (to align with EU 305/2011) – so not July 2014 as stated on the web site.

The current UK Construction Products Regulations now appear as Schedule 11 of the Building Safety Act 2022 c.30

As to EN 1090-1:2009+A1:2011 it was the period of co-existence which ended on 1st July 2014.
The published standard had been available for use from 1st September 2012. At the end of co-existence it was no longer permissible to place product conforming to EN 1090-1:2009 on the market.

EN 1090-1:2009 had its citation in the Official Journal as C344 on 17th December 2010 against 89/106/EEC i.e. CE marking was possible from 2010

The OP should read the standard and draw their own conclusion

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Roundtuit  
#23 Posted : 29 June 2023 10:37:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Chris I am disagreeing as you cite a company web site as authority (how often do we advise on these forums to check hearsay at the source?)

S.I. 1991 No. 1620 The Construction Products Regulations 1991 brought 89/106/EEC The Construction Products Directive on to UK statute which as one the New Approach Directives mandates conformity assessment and application of the EC mark to a product – since 1991

S.I. 1994 No. 3051 The Construction Products (amendment) Regulations 1994 adjusted the wording to change “EC mark” to “CE marking”

Over time 89/106/EEC was replaced by EU 305/2011 The Construction Products Regulations which were enacted as S.I. 2013 No. 1387 The Construction Products Regulations 2013 which entered force 1st July 2013 (to align with EU 305/2011) – so not July 2014 as stated on the web site.

The current UK Construction Products Regulations now appear as Schedule 11 of the Building Safety Act 2022 c.30

As to EN 1090-1:2009+A1:2011 it was the period of co-existence which ended on 1st July 2014.
The published standard had been available for use from 1st September 2012. At the end of co-existence it was no longer permissible to place product conforming to EN 1090-1:2009 on the market.

EN 1090-1:2009 had its citation in the Official Journal as C344 on 17th December 2010 against 89/106/EEC i.e. CE marking was possible from 2010

The OP should read the standard and draw their own conclusion

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David Manson  
#24 Posted : 30 June 2023 15:16:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David Manson

Thanks everyone for the detailed and relevant contributions. We have come to the conclusion that we will use a specialist manufacturer for this job and have already started making enquiries. The technical details will help in our negotiations.

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peter gotch on 30/06/2023(UTC)
chris42  
#25 Posted : 01 July 2023 15:55:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I’m on holiday at the moment hence late response. FYI I was not citing the referenced web site as an authoritative source just an example of many that seem to suggest that these types of structure are CE Marked. There were many others also suggesting these types of products are considered structural steelwork. Afterall a platform that people will stand on, and unload goods onto, sounds structural to me, but as you say not to you.

I admit it is around a decade or more since I last read that standard, so it is a little foggy now in my mind as I’m now in a different industry. The OP may have had a get out, as it is a one off not series production (but then again, a building is a one off, so not sure about that).

Excellent history of construction products though, culminating in the latest version of BS EN 1090 (ie A1 amendment) coming in on the beginning of July 2014 (just as the web site had, but didn’t bother listing the A1 amendment, but none of them seemed to).

Interesting the Gov web site did not mention structural steelwork in the list at all.

I wholehearted agree the op should make their own mind up, and it appears they have. I hope once they have had chance to go out to the market that they will be kind enough to let us know if the platform they intend to buy will be CE marked (however many months down the line that happens to be).

Chris

Roundtuit  
#26 Posted : 01 July 2023 17:48:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Structural steel is typically used in reference to the skeleton of a building or construction being made from beams and bars even though it is also a description of the chemistry.

Roundtuit  
#27 Posted : 01 July 2023 17:48:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Structural steel is typically used in reference to the skeleton of a building or construction being made from beams and bars even though it is also a description of the chemistry.

chris42  
#28 Posted : 02 July 2023 09:49:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

https://www.bsigroup.com/documents/product-certification/clarification-of-scope-en-1090.pdf

page 2

Roundtuit  
#29 Posted : 02 July 2023 18:38:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Thanks Chris for this 2014 document.

Page 1: Therefore this document should be used with caution, as only the Commission’s website can be regarded as being authoritative.

The paragraph I presume you are referring to on page 2: Structural component - Components to be used as load-bearing parts of works designed to provide mechanical resistance and stability to the works and/or fire resistance, including aspects of durability and serviceability which can be used directly as delivered or can be incorporated into a construction work. 

Yet on page 6: 4.4 Other products not covered by EN 1090-1
a. Components for use in structures that are not within the scope of the Construction Products Regulation.
a. Offshore structures
b. Temporary works c. Components that are not permanently incorporated into the building or civil engineering works (e.g. crane bridge etc)

Back to the OP: We have designed a stand-alone fixed metal platform​​​​​​​

Roundtuit  
#30 Posted : 02 July 2023 18:38:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Thanks Chris for this 2014 document.

Page 1: Therefore this document should be used with caution, as only the Commission’s website can be regarded as being authoritative.

The paragraph I presume you are referring to on page 2: Structural component - Components to be used as load-bearing parts of works designed to provide mechanical resistance and stability to the works and/or fire resistance, including aspects of durability and serviceability which can be used directly as delivered or can be incorporated into a construction work. 

Yet on page 6: 4.4 Other products not covered by EN 1090-1
a. Components for use in structures that are not within the scope of the Construction Products Regulation.
a. Offshore structures
b. Temporary works c. Components that are not permanently incorporated into the building or civil engineering works (e.g. crane bridge etc)

Back to the OP: We have designed a stand-alone fixed metal platform​​​​​​​

chris42  
#31 Posted : 02 July 2023 20:48:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

No, I was referring to :-

Extract

3. Structural Steel and Aluminium Components - within Scope

3.1 Components for Use in Buildings

a. Architectural steelwork for:

• Staircases

• Balconies

• Canopies

b. Lighter fabrications include:

• Fire escapes,

• Ladders

• Catwalks

• Walkways, including open mesh flooring

• Ramps

• Guardrails, handrails and balustrades

It came into force in 2014 so makes sense that is when BSI produced the document.

The Op describes it as fixed and permanent. Let’s agree to disagree on this, hopefully the OP will let us know when they have sourced a platform that people and steel columns will be loaded / offloaded on to if it is CE marked or not.

Chris

Roundtuit  
#32 Posted : 03 July 2023 07:39:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Also under 4.4 Other products not covered by EN 1090-1 b. Components or changes to components which are not made in the factory (i.e. are made on site)

Yep - going to have to agree to disagree

Roundtuit  
#33 Posted : 03 July 2023 07:39:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Also under 4.4 Other products not covered by EN 1090-1 b. Components or changes to components which are not made in the factory (i.e. are made on site)

Yep - going to have to agree to disagree

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