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abotto  
#1 Posted : 28 July 2023 14:26:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
abotto

Hi all,

So nothing new - most Fire and Rescue Services will not attend to a fire alarm actuation unless signs of a fire have been confirmed. Therefore, if the fire alarm activated in the workplace the occupants can not just call 999 and request the FRS, they have to actively (and safely) investigate the source of a sounding fire alarm. 

It's something my employer has never implemented - always relied on calling 999. Until recently when they refused to come out until the occupants had searched the building for signs of a fire. My employer is now accepting the move to investigate the source of a sounding fire alarm. However, I have expressed people need to be trained on how to do this safely (e.g. not just opening doors but running the back of your hand over it first etc.). 

Can I ask how other organisations have implemented this? I've looked at external training (fire awareness and fire marshal/ warden) but no one covers how to search the building following a fire alarm actuation - I've also reached out to a number and specifically asked the question whether their training covers this but I get no where. We are multi-site with approximately 200 workplaces. We can create an in-house e-learning with in-house knowledge & expertise, but there are reservations about doing this training via e-learning, and the expertise is too thin on the ground to go out to the 200 sites. 

Just looking for any ideas. Cheers 

firesafety101  
#2 Posted : 30 July 2023 17:31:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

London Fire Brigade have online advice about this very subject and toward the bottom of the list they say this:

Don’t forget you can talk to us if you’re struggling to resolve the problem and need guidance.

thanks 1 user thanked firesafety101 for this useful post.
abotto on 31/07/2023(UTC)
O'Donnell54548  
#3 Posted : 31 July 2023 05:37:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
O'Donnell54548

Originally Posted by: abotto Go to Quoted Post

Hi all,

So nothing new - most Fire and Rescue Services will not attend to a fire alarm actuation unless signs of a fire have been confirmed. Therefore, if the fire alarm activated in the workplace the occupants can not just call 999 and request the FRS, they have to actively (and safely) investigate the source of a sounding fire alarm. 

It's something my employer has never implemented - always relied on calling 999. Until recently when they refused to come out until the occupants had searched the building for signs of a fire. My employer is now accepting the move to investigate the source of a sounding fire alarm. However, I have expressed people need to be trained on how to do this safely (e.g. not just opening doors but running the back of your hand over it first etc.). 

Can I ask how other organisations have implemented this? I've looked at external training (fire awareness and fire marshal/ warden) but no one covers how to search the building following a fire alarm actuation - I've also reached out to a number and specifically asked the question whether their training covers this but I get no where. We are multi-site with approximately 200 workplaces. We can create an in-house e-learning with in-house knowledge & expertise, but there are reservations about doing this training via e-learning, and the expertise is too thin on the ground to go out to the 200 sites. 

Just looking for any ideas. Cheers 

Search the building? surely if it is triggered by an detector this will show the location on your control panel, and if by manual call point the person who raised the alarm can tell you where it is.  

thanks 2 users thanked O'Donnell54548 for this useful post.
chris42 on 31/07/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 31/07/2023(UTC)
Messey  
#4 Posted : 31 July 2023 17:10:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Messey

I agree that a generic procedure needs to be put in place so everyone knows what they are doing, but it really isn't rocket science.

Let's start at the beginning. The vast majority of fire alarm systems are to raise the alarm and let others know there is a fire so they can act accordingly. For years the fire service (IMHO) wasted £millions dashing about searching and resetting alarms - some of which followed 999 calls even though the occupier knew it was an unwanted alarm signal before making the call. That is obscene! A friend of mine when I was in the fire service died en route to a fire alarm call in a hospital when the appliance was involved in a RTC. There were scores of security and facility staff -plus NHS managers who could have done the search quicker than us, but we went there several times a week

So its is right that the cash strapped fire service target their money efficiently and let the Responsible person - well, act responsibly 

At my last job we had a range of premises. Some very large (3000 detector heads) and some small. We investigated all of our actuations and in 14 years we only called the fire service once when we has the smell of hot works near a detector that had operated and there was some doubt why it had activated 

Training can be as simple as identifying staff to do the search and setting a set of rules to be followed

Our main rules were:

Work in pairs (radio contact with another person is acceptable in low risk premises as long as there’s a process to follow if contact is lost)

Safety is paramount - any doubts, get the fire brigade out (smell of burning , hotter than usual rooms or walls, odd noises, in fact anything out of the ordinary or unexpected - 999)

There will be no ramifications on staff who call 999 when there was no fire, but merely a suspicion of fire 

Notts fire and rescue have good advice here

https://www.notts-fire.gov.uk/business-safety/supporting-business/unwanted-fire-signals/how-to-investigate-and-reset-your-fire-alarm/#:~:text=When investigating look, listen and,do not open the door.

Good luck

thanks 3 users thanked Messey for this useful post.
abotto on 31/07/2023(UTC), Martin Fieldingt on 01/08/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 01/08/2023(UTC)
abotto  
#5 Posted : 31 July 2023 20:03:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
abotto

Absolutely agree with the FRS policy on not attending Messey, especially when some are quoting 96% of call outs are false. Thanks for the advice and link to the webpage
antbruce001  
#6 Posted : 01 August 2023 06:36:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
antbruce001

Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548 Go to Quoted Post

Search the building? surely if it is triggered by an detector this will show the location on your control panel, and if by manual call point the person who raised the alarm can tell you where it is.  

Although this is true if you have a fully addressable fire alarm system, or your Zones are small and localised in nature. However, a lot of fire alarms are installed/set up to have either a single Zone covering the whole demise or a very large Zone, i.e. each Zone is a whole floor of the building. 

Perhaps this requirement might 'encourage' the Responsible Person and Fire Alarm companies to think a bit harder about the design of the installation going forward. 

Edited by user 01 August 2023 06:38:02(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 1 user thanked antbruce001 for this useful post.
abotto on 01/08/2023(UTC)
O'Donnell54548  
#7 Posted : 07 August 2023 06:46:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
O'Donnell54548

Originally Posted by: antbruce001 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: O'Donnell54548 Go to Quoted Post

Search the building? surely if it is triggered by an detector this will show the location on your control panel, and if by manual call point the person who raised the alarm can tell you where it is.  

Although this is true if you have a fully addressable fire alarm system, or your Zones are small and localised in nature. However, a lot of fire alarms are installed/set up to have either a single Zone covering the whole demise or a very large Zone, i.e. each Zone is a whole floor of the building. 

Perhaps this requirement might 'encourage' the Responsible Person and Fire Alarm companies to think a bit harder about the design of the installation going forward. 

My point, taken what you have said in your quote, is that you would still not have to search the whole building. 

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