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I'll try and keep this question brief...the duty to manage asbestos as per CAR 2012 Regulation 4 applies to non-domestic properties. In respect to domestic housing stock the HSE have previously acknowledged this but advised there are overlapping duties with HSWA s 2&3, MHSWR, etc. However I have found potentially conflicting guidance where the HSE are now saying CAR 2012 equally applies to Landlords for domestic properties where there are common parts to the property.
My question is - does this in effect mean that an asbestos survey needs to be completed as a matter of course? Even when no maintenance or refurbishment work is taking place?
Thanks for your comments in advance.
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Hi Ray,
If it does apply then a survey would need to be conducted to generate a property action plan. a management survey should suffice if no works are to be conducted at present.
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I see no conflict.
A rental property is a business asset.
My home (owned by me) is a residential property.
The rental property up the street (identical house) is not, as the owner has a duty of care to others (his tenants).
I maybe naive in law.
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 2 users thanked walker for this useful post.
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Maybe in my brevity I did not properly explain. The issue is really about what it states in the law and what is possibly inferred or implied. CAR 2012 makes it quite clear it does not apply to non-domestic properties. There is no caveat as far as I can see about anything applying to domestic properties, communal areas or otherwise.
If that is the case, there explicit legal requirement to carry out an asbestos survey. I know the next question - how do manage asbestos if you do not carry out a (management) survey? Well, that's another matter to deal with.
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correction - ONLY applies to non-domestic properties. Argh!
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Table 5 in the ACop might give a bit of clarity as to the common parts of what type of properties Ray - page 29
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Walker is correct and managing rented property with communal areas has always been a pain
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walker wrote:
A rental property is a business asset.
My home (owned by me) is a residential property.
The rental property up the street (identical house) is not, as the owner has a duty of care to others (his tenants).
I maybe naive in law.
The landlord of a totally private dwelling (ie no communal elements) is not treated as having a business necessarily and is unlikely to be an employer. They do not have to declare themselves self-employed, pay NI, etc. There is a different tax regime for rental properties, which is different to tax in any other business. The landlord has a 'duty of care' but that is as the civil concept only. Such a landlord has no duties under H&S legislation.
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Like I said, I'm not sure what the law says on this.
But say I own a house.
I rent it out for gain.
I get a plumber in to fix the Central Heating
Who is responsible for ensuring the plumber & tenants are not exposed to asbestos.
I think me, as I am the one in it for the money.
say I have 2,3, 4 houses like this; what then?
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L143 ACoP paragraphs 89 - 92 is surely a definitive interpretation. The withdrawn L127 said the same.
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walker wrote:
I own a house.
I rent it out for gain.
I get a plumber in to fix the Central Heating
Who is responsible for ensuring the plumber & tenants are not exposed to asbestos.
I think me, as I am the one in it for the money.
Well the plumber is also in it for the money . . . However, whilst you (and I) might follow a moral obligation to inform of known or possible asbestos, if a landlord is neither employer or self-employed, there is no duty under H&S legislation. There is also a complication if such property is managed by an agent, (who will have employment / 'at work' status) but that is not what the question was about.
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Cdm 2015, employing a contractor you are responsible for them. Therefore I would suggest you would be obliged to carry one out whether renting or living in the house
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Ahem.
As a relevant aside, the updated HSG274 Part 2 guidance covered this explicitly but in relation to legionella.
There ARE duties under s.3 of HASWA and it is considered to be a business.
Why wouldn't it apply for asbestos?
However, I agree that CAR is not strictly applicable...in the same way that COSHH is not explicitly applicable for legionella. Nonetheless, those Regs set out an obvious and accepted means of compliance that you'd be foolish to ignore without good justifiable reason.
For another example, why not consider LOLER in domestic flats. No specific requirements or applicability but the ACOP suggests that thorough examination and compliance with those Regs would be appropriate means of demonstrating compliance under s.3.
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Apologies for not commenting sooner but been otherwise engaged.
Some interesting observations, not all I would agree with but I don't say that with any criticism - you post your question and takes your chances. Incidentally, CAR should have included duties for domestic properties and this would have stopped a lot of this nonsense.
I will be perfectly blunt so as not to digress any further - the issue is whether a LA are legally obliged to ensure an asbestos survey has been carried out in the case where a council owned building is being bought as a 'right to buy'. There are differing opinions, hence my original posting. There is nothing as far as I am aware which states we have to carry out a (management) survey before we can sell the property. There is of course the moral argument...I am concerned only with the legal argument at this point.
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Council owned building is a flat with a communal area - so it's the communal areas which is the real issue.
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I agree. Nothing explicit in H&S law to the best of my knowledge in relation to having a survey done in advance of a sale - there is an argument to be made that LA should have been managing asbestos historically (for which a survey may be an appropriate means of compliance) but that doesn't legally interfere with the ability to sell the property.... unless there is some info about other regs outside of h&s of which I have no knowledge?
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I suggest Regulation 4(7) of CDM2015 is applicable. L153 Guidance is quite specific in including information within H&S File requirements. CDM2007 imposed similar/identical duty.
All in the context of a perfect world of course, with the H&S File being available, and an up-to-date survey of communal areas referenced within it......many LAs will struggle with compliance.
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Thanks Ron, but no work is taking place so I don't see the relevance to CDM/H&S File.
Anyway, Xavier has hit the nail on the head. There is no legal duty to provide a management survey with the sale of a property. Legal have since confirmed they agree with my interpretation of CAR 2012 and have backed down - job done.
Thanks to all those who have contributed, your comments certainly gave me food for thought.
Ray
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aud
Can you clarify just where you obtained the info as stated** as I was a landlord myself in Heysham Lancs for a number of years and that is not how I was treated by the enforcers, insurers, social security nor the local or national tax man noting that being a landlord automatically makes U a business of some sort or has something significantly changed recently? Nor was it the way EHO's, HSE & fire people saw it in my professional role or did I miss something again as your point is a very important one?
** "The landlord of a totally private dwelling (ie no communal elements) is not treated as having a business necessarily and is unlikely to be an employer"?
Regards
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Bob - will PM you as it's a bit longwinded and goes off-topic.
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RayRapp wrote:Thanks Ron, but no work is taking place
Ray No significant work in a LA housing block since 1994 is hard to believe, Ray! Note that the CDM Client duty is expressed only in terms of discharging his interest in the property, and is not to a 'Project specific' duty.
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Certainly. Your question touches on the application of the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012 (CAR 2012) to both non-domestic and domestic properties, particularly when common parts are involved. The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) has acknowledged the overlap between CAR 2012 and the Health and Safety at Work Act (HSWA) sections 2 and 3, along with the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations (MHSWR), especially for domestic housing. While there's evolving guidance, it's important to refer to reputable sources like the HSE's official guidance on asbestos duty: HSE Asbestos Duty. For a comprehensive understanding of asbestos management, these resources might help: It's recommended to consider seeking professional advice due to the evolving interpretations and complexities of asbestos regulations. Staying informed ensures safety and compliance.
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Ray Rapp last visited the forum in May 2020 so how are you answering a question from eight years ago in a manner that is relevant?
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Ray Rapp last visited the forum in May 2020 so how are you answering a question from eight years ago in a manner that is relevant?
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Originally Posted by: Roundtuit  Ray Rapp last visited the forum in May 2020 so how are you answering a question from eight years ago in a manner that is relevant? Probably because he could well work for Human Focus E Learning, so it's an advert (I've reported it) Found this online.... "Zaki is a content marketing specialist currently working at HumanFocus, an e-learning platform offering online training courses" https://community.health...ts.com/member/AEWGte9qO2Edited by user 28 August 2023 10:57:23(UTC)
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1 user thanked Alan Haynes for this useful post.
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I understand your concern about the time gap since Ray Rapp's last visit in May 2020. It does seem odd that a question from eight years ago is being addressed now. However, older posts can sometimes resurface if someone new stumbles upon them or the topic remains relevant over time. While the timing might be unusual, the information shared in responses can still be helpful to others seeking similar insights. They help others by providing valuable perspectives and insights, even if the original question was asked years ago.
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1 user thanked John Richard Designer for this useful post.
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Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Ray Rapp last visited the forum in May 2020 so how are you answering a question from eight years ago in a manner that is relevant?
I get why you might be surprised by my response to an eight-year-old question, considering Ray Rapp's last visit was in May 2020. Old threads resurface sometimes due to various reasons. My aim is to offer useful insights to anyone who finds the topic. Yes, I represent HumanFocus, but I'm not here for content marketing. My main goal is to educate people about this subject.
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Originally Posted by: walker Like I said, I'm not sure what the law says on this.
But say I own a house.
I rent it out for gain.
I get a plumber in to fix the Central Heating
Who is responsible for ensuring the plumber & tenants are not exposed to asbestos.
I think me, as I am the one in it for the money.
say I have 2,3, 4 houses like this; what then?
Interesting point? Who is responsible for the plumber if I am the householder, is the duty only a civil one, and if so who do I ensure that I can forefill that duty??
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Originally Posted by: Zaki Masood Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Ray Rapp last visited the forum in May 2020 so how are you answering a question from eight years ago in a manner that is relevant? I get why you might be surprised by my response to an eight-year-old question, considering Ray Rapp's last visit was in May 2020. Old threads resurface sometimes due to various reasons. My aim is to offer useful insights to anyone who finds the topic. Yes, I represent HumanFocus, but I'm not here for content marketing. My main goal is to educate people about this subject. Congratulations on creating another zombie post - as you will note O'Donnell has jumped in to respond to a thread that had died a natural death. Can I suggest you join in with active discussions rather than embarking on self promotion talking at the absent. It is mainly clickbait and advertising that causes old threads to resurface.
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Originally Posted by: Zaki Masood Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Ray Rapp last visited the forum in May 2020 so how are you answering a question from eight years ago in a manner that is relevant? I get why you might be surprised by my response to an eight-year-old question, considering Ray Rapp's last visit was in May 2020. Old threads resurface sometimes due to various reasons. My aim is to offer useful insights to anyone who finds the topic. Yes, I represent HumanFocus, but I'm not here for content marketing. My main goal is to educate people about this subject. Congratulations on creating another zombie post - as you will note O'Donnell has jumped in to respond to a thread that had died a natural death. Can I suggest you join in with active discussions rather than embarking on self promotion talking at the absent. It is mainly clickbait and advertising that causes old threads to resurface.
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Originally Posted by: John Richard Designer <p>I understand your concern about the time gap since Ray Rapp's last visit in May 2020. It does seem odd that a question from eight years ago is being addressed now. However, older posts can sometimes resurface if someone new stumbles upon them or the topic remains relevant over time. While the timing might be unusual, the information shared in responses can still be helpful to others seeking similar insights. They help others by providing valuable perspectives and insights, even if the original question was asked years ago.
</p> And your relationship with HumanFocus and Zaki? Your first post upon joining the forum has incredibly perfect timing in defending the actions of another.
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Originally Posted by: John Richard Designer <p>I understand your concern about the time gap since Ray Rapp's last visit in May 2020. It does seem odd that a question from eight years ago is being addressed now. However, older posts can sometimes resurface if someone new stumbles upon them or the topic remains relevant over time. While the timing might be unusual, the information shared in responses can still be helpful to others seeking similar insights. They help others by providing valuable perspectives and insights, even if the original question was asked years ago.
</p> And your relationship with HumanFocus and Zaki? Your first post upon joining the forum has incredibly perfect timing in defending the actions of another.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: John Richard Designer <p>I understand your concern about the time gap since Ray Rapp's last visit in May 2020. It does seem odd that a question from eight years ago is being addressed now. However, older posts can sometimes resurface if someone new stumbles upon them or the topic remains relevant over time. While the timing might be unusual, the information shared in responses can still be helpful to others seeking similar insights. They help others by providing valuable perspectives and insights, even if the original question was asked years ago.
</p> The timing and content of your first post to the forum is more than suspicious
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Originally Posted by: John Richard Designer <p>I understand your concern about the time gap since Ray Rapp's last visit in May 2020. It does seem odd that a question from eight years ago is being addressed now. However, older posts can sometimes resurface if someone new stumbles upon them or the topic remains relevant over time. While the timing might be unusual, the information shared in responses can still be helpful to others seeking similar insights. They help others by providing valuable perspectives and insights, even if the original question was asked years ago.
</p> The timing and content of your first post to the forum is more than suspicious
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Originally Posted by: RayRapp I'll try and keep this question brief...the duty to manage asbestos as per CAR 2012 Regulation 4 applies to non-domestic properties. In respect to domestic housing stock the HSE have previously acknowledged this but advised there are overlapping duties with HSWA s 2&3, MHSWR, etc. However I have found potentially conflicting guidance where the HSE are now saying CAR 2012 equally applies to Landlords for domestic properties where there are common parts to the property.
My question is - does this in effect mean that an asbestos survey needs to be completed as a matter of course? Even when no maintenance or refurbishment work is taking place?
Thanks for your comments in advance. In the context of asbestos management, the duty outlined in CAR 2012 Regulation 4 applies to non-domestic properties. For domestic housing, the HSE has previously indicated overlapping duties with other regulations like HSWA s 2&3, MHSWR, etc. There's emerging guidance suggesting that CAR 2012 could apply to landlords of domestic properties with common parts. This might imply a need for asbestos surveys, even without ongoing maintenance or refurbishment. Clarification is needed on whether surveys are required in such cases.
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