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drice1971  
#1 Posted : 12 October 2023 09:34:14(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
drice1971

So, I've been asked to change my client's external fire doors on an old Victorian Building. It has five floors and each door opens onto an external metal fire escape. Each existing door is fitted with an external overhead door closer. Now, my question is, do the new doors have to have closers fitted, as I'm led to believe (according to an IOSH webinar held by Anne Isaacs) that closers should 'never' be fitted on final exit fire doors. Perhaps these are fitted to stop fire from entering the levels of each landing of the external fire escape ?? Any advice is welcome.

firesafety101  
#2 Posted : 12 October 2023 09:56:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

A fire exit door is not a "fire door" therefore does not need to be the same spec as an internal Fire Door.

I would advise against having closing devoces on fire exit doors.

I do advise placing a relevant type fire extinguisher on a wall bracket near to the fire exit and have intermittent checks to ensure the extinguisher is not used as a "Door Stop".

peter gotch  
#3 Posted : 12 October 2023 10:29:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Morning drice

I am puzzled by this guidance.

Assuming that this is not domestic premises then the relevant Approved Document B is at Approved Document B (fire safety) volume 2: Buildings other than dwellings, 2019 edition incorporating 2020 and 2022 amendments (publishing.service.gov.uk)

So, it comments on external fire staircases:

External escape stairs

3.31 Where a storey or part of the building has more than one escape route available, some of the escape routes may be via an external escape stair, provided the following conditions are met.

a. There is at least one internal escape stair from every part of each storey (excluding plant areas).

b. In the case of an ‘assembly and recreation’ (purpose group 5) building, the route is not intended for use by the public.

c. In the case of a ‘residential (institutional)’ (purpose group 2(a)) building, the route serves only office or residential staff accommodation.

3.32 Any external escape stair should meet all of the following conditions (Diagram 3.4).

a. Doors to the stair should be fire resisting (minimum E 30) and be fitted with a self-closing device, except for a single exit door from the building to the top landing of a downward leading external stair, provided it is the only door onto the landing.

b. Fire resisting construction (minimum RE 30) is required for the building envelope within the following zones, measured from the flights and landings of the external stair

CONTINUES (My bold italics and underlining)

I think this is one to put to the project design team.

However, my take on it would be that you are altering the doors and even if the building is Listed or other heritage restrictions apply, at the very least the standard should be at least as strict as before the change.

I think that your comment "Perhaps these are fitted to stop fire from entering the levels of each landing of the external fire escape ??" is reflected in the wording of the Approved Document, with the sole exception being the uppermost floor.

thanks 2 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
Messey on 12/10/2023(UTC), firesafety101 on 13/10/2023(UTC)
chris42  
#4 Posted : 12 October 2023 11:08:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Quote

“I think that your comment "Perhaps these are fitted to stop fire from entering the levels of each landing of the external fire escape ??" is reflected in the wording of the Approved Document, with the sole exception being the uppermost floor.”

Surely it is not particularly to stop fire getting in, but to stop people being barbecued on the way down as they go past these doors ( so obviously not the issue at the top as only people coming out not past).

I have to be honest I knew exit doors didn’t need to be fire resisting say at ground level, but I thought they were supposed to have closers to stop fresh air coming in and feeding the fire!

Something for me to look into again it seems.

Chris

thanks 2 users thanked chris42 for this useful post.
Kate on 12/10/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 12/10/2023(UTC)
peter gotch  
#5 Posted : 12 October 2023 18:14:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Yes Chris42, that too!

firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 13 October 2023 16:49:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post

A fire exit door is not a "fire door" therefore does not need to be the same spec as an internal Fire Door.

I would advise against having closing devoces on fire exit doors.

I do advise placing a relevant type fire extinguisher on a wall bracket near to the fire exit and have intermittent checks to ensure the extinguisher is not used as a "Door Stop".

Apologies for I gave duff information.  Thanks to Peter Gotch for putting me on the right road to purchasing the post Grenfell editions of Approved Document B parts 1 and 2. 

I've given myself a good slapping ha ha

thanks 2 users thanked firesafety101 for this useful post.
Kate on 13/10/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 13/10/2023(UTC)
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