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bovovey  
#1 Posted : 02 May 2024 13:00:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bovovey

Please could anyone answer the question, that if a contractor who provides services to the public sector obtains CHAS Elite (or similar CAS) as they must from end next month, can they use sub-contractors who only hold standard CHAS (or other standard SSIP)? or do those sub-contractors also have to obtain the CAS?. Or would it depend on if those subbies are working within the public or provate sector? 

We seem to be getting battered with Building Regs changes, Planning changes and now this, all in a very short space of time.

Many thanks.

A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 07 May 2024 10:14:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I saw this question and there was something odd about it. The poster was implying that membership the CHAS scheme was in some way compulsory if bidding for  work in the public sector. This did not feel right. There is no way that the government ( a supporter of free enterprise apparently) would introduce legislation tying suppliers to a particular commercial scheme. So I did some digging, and it looks like some organisations that provide support for companies applying for these schemes are saying just that. But if you look at the Policy Procurement Note issued by the government to those public sector agencies requesting work it simply says that the Standard Selection Questionnaire should  include the question :“… describe the arrangements you have in place to manage health and safety effectively and control significant risks relevant to the requirement (including risks from the use of contractors, where relevant). [Please use no more than 500 words.]

The guidance also says that:” . The type and level of relevant experience and capability for managing health and safety risks may vary, depending on the risks, size and complexity of the requirement. Guidance from the Health and Safety Executive describes what is appropriate and proportionate in particular circumstances.”

Nothing about participating in particular schemes.

thanks 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Roundtuit on 07/05/2024(UTC), M.cooper.99 on 08/05/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 07 May 2024 11:22:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Must admit it is a brain scratcher.

Three times I tried to craft a response and on each occassion decided it was not right.

Ultimately UK construction at its basic level is the self-employed jobbing worker with absolutely no free cash to pay for the multiple accreditations demanded by main contractors.

If you cascade this demand along the supply chain then the prices being created for the principal would be unjustifiable.

It is a bit like asking a sole trader to have ISO 9001 / 14001 / 45001 - as there are no other employees involved what practical purpose do documented procedures serve other than a certificate for someone elses tick box?

I recall BSI selling that companies without BS 5750 would go out of business - here we are decades later and there are still a lot of organisations succesfully trading without its ISO 9001 successor.

Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 07 May 2024 11:22:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Must admit it is a brain scratcher.

Three times I tried to craft a response and on each occassion decided it was not right.

Ultimately UK construction at its basic level is the self-employed jobbing worker with absolutely no free cash to pay for the multiple accreditations demanded by main contractors.

If you cascade this demand along the supply chain then the prices being created for the principal would be unjustifiable.

It is a bit like asking a sole trader to have ISO 9001 / 14001 / 45001 - as there are no other employees involved what practical purpose do documented procedures serve other than a certificate for someone elses tick box?

I recall BSI selling that companies without BS 5750 would go out of business - here we are decades later and there are still a lot of organisations succesfully trading without its ISO 9001 successor.

bovovey  
#5 Posted : 07 May 2024 13:52:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bovovey

Thank you both, and apologies for the head scratcher.  It does look like CHAS are pushing hard on this from their end as I had suspicions about..   

Public sector now specifies Common Assessment Standard | CHAS

And I certainly agree, it would be wholly disproportionate to cascade such a requirement along the supply chain.  It would effectively exclude smaller companies thus forcing a PC to use more expensive larger companies that hold such assessemt levels.

The trouble arises if public bodies start insisting on the likes of CHAS Elite to get past the first hurdle.

Thank you again for taking the time to reply.  Most helpful.

Edited by user 07 May 2024 14:57:27(UTC)  | Reason: spelling correction

Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 07 May 2024 14:49:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Rather a naughtily presented article at the end of that hyperlink.

This is to do with the primary bidding company seeking a public contract, whilst CHAS would love everyone to be paying for assessment reality (and the public purse strings) would not see widescale adoption.

Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 07 May 2024 14:49:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Rather a naughtily presented article at the end of that hyperlink.

This is to do with the primary bidding company seeking a public contract, whilst CHAS would love everyone to be paying for assessment reality (and the public purse strings) would not see widescale adoption.

Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 10 May 2024 09:01:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2024/05/10/contractors-face-mental-health-quiz-to-win-work/

Let's have a few more boxes to tick / assessment charges to apply.

Following Halton Borough Council introducing mental helath scoring to its procurement process back in March.

THIS will really struggle to drift along the supply chain given issues with basics - PPE / RAMS

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 10/05/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 10/05/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 10 May 2024 09:01:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2024/05/10/contractors-face-mental-health-quiz-to-win-work/

Let's have a few more boxes to tick / assessment charges to apply.

Following Halton Borough Council introducing mental helath scoring to its procurement process back in March.

THIS will really struggle to drift along the supply chain given issues with basics - PPE / RAMS

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 10/05/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 10/05/2024(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#10 Posted : 10 May 2024 09:11:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

of course as far as mental health is concerned one of the biggests stressors are pointless unanswerable pre bid questionnaires!

thanks 3 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
Roundtuit on 10/05/2024(UTC), chris42 on 10/05/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 10/05/2024(UTC)
peter gotch  
#11 Posted : 10 May 2024 14:49:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Life was a bit easier under CDM 2007 than under CDM 2015, or some implicit variant for procurement other than for construction work.

The Approved Code of Practice and Guidance, L144 which supported CDM 2007 sought hard to reduce the amount of bureaucracy in "competency" assessments by setting out some ground rules that would usually help those doing the assessments to make decisions with less of a paper chase.

Unfortunately when HSE decided that "competency" had become a word to be thrown away it replaced it with "SKE" - skills, knowledge and experience - but provided less guidance in L153 which supports CDM 2015 on how to avoid increased bureaucracy when judging SKE instead of "competency".

AND the result was that those doing competency, sorry, SKE assessments or those they pay to do these for them returned to bad habits or managed to make the bad habits even worse.

There was a time when I had provided our Sales and Marketing team all the model answers they needed to answer almost all of the H&S questions that were thrown up during prequals and bids.

But one Client was routinely an exception as each time a project came up the Client's Project Manager would introduce their PERSONAL additional question or questions into the equation and I would fume and think "Why on earth are they asking us to answer that? Do they not review our performance on each project we do for them? They SHOULD know whether we are "competent" or not from live project experience."

However......if the Client says "Jump", whether directly or via some assessing organisation, if you want the work, you have to jump through all the hurdles OR say "We won't answer that question".

On the occasions when we said "NO", very rarely did the Client NOT back down.

BUT....we were bigger than most of our Clients and most suppliers don't have the same SELLER power. Usually the BUYER gets their way, however disproportionate their demands may be.

bovovey  
#12 Posted : 22 May 2024 16:48:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bovovey

An update from CHAS on this matter..

"We stated that if you carry out work for any public sector body you’re going to need the Common Assessment Standard (CAS) accreditation. We said that SSIP accreditations will no longer be accepted.  This statement was inaccurate.

We would like to clarify that SSIP accreditations may be accepted by public sector bodies.  SSIP accreditations will also enable exemption from Section 4: Health and Safety, of the Common Assessment Standard. Please accept our apologies in relation to the misleading information previously communicated."

So that's that one put back in its box!.  Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond.

thanks 2 users thanked bovovey for this useful post.
peter gotch on 22/05/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 23/05/2024(UTC)
peter gotch  
#13 Posted : 22 May 2024 16:58:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Problem is that once something gets out of a box, it is very difficult to effectively put it back in the box.

A bit like some of the things that happen in politics and on the front pages of newspapers.

So, some scary story on page 1, followed by a retraction (and half hearted apology) a few weeks later on page 30. If nobody finds the retraction then the myth perpetuates. "I am sure I remember reading about that...."

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 23/05/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#14 Posted : 23 May 2024 07:28:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Wonder if any of the other SSIP providers will be bringing this up at their members meeting?

https://ssip.org.uk/about-ssip/mission-statement-corporate-values/

From SSIP corporate values: Help buyers and suppliers to achieve value for money through avoiding unnecessary duplication or differing Health & Safety assessment requirements, wherever possible.

Don't you just love those last two words - licence to print money.

Then when you consider the preceeding line: Help and encourage buyers to recognise SSIP and its aims and objectives, and to specify and recognise SSIP member schemes in general, rather than a specific scheme provider.​​​​​​​

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 23/05/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 23/05/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 23/05/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 23/05/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#15 Posted : 23 May 2024 07:28:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Wonder if any of the other SSIP providers will be bringing this up at their members meeting?

https://ssip.org.uk/about-ssip/mission-statement-corporate-values/

From SSIP corporate values: Help buyers and suppliers to achieve value for money through avoiding unnecessary duplication or differing Health & Safety assessment requirements, wherever possible.

Don't you just love those last two words - licence to print money.

Then when you consider the preceeding line: Help and encourage buyers to recognise SSIP and its aims and objectives, and to specify and recognise SSIP member schemes in general, rather than a specific scheme provider.​​​​​​​

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 23/05/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 23/05/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 23/05/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 23/05/2024(UTC)
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