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chris42  
#1 Posted : 22 April 2024 15:18:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I know some of you conduct the IOSH Managing safely course, which I believe to be 3 days. We have just got some of our new managers to do the course online and one has come back and said it took him 3 hours! And I have a copy of his certificate!

Is this correct? The supplier is a well know company in the H&S world and their virtual classroom and Training at your site are both 3 days for the course. The website does not give an indication of how long the online version will take in total.

Condensing 3 days into 3 hours seems a bit much, does anyone else have experience of this or think it is right?

Chris

M.cooper.99  
#2 Posted : 23 April 2024 06:03:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
M.cooper.99

Hi Chris,

Some of the people in my workplace did the managing safely online. I managed to get a peak at the course and it seemed very basic. Just an information dump slideshow followed by a multiple choice exam, that learners could whizz through, and a risk assessment. To be honest, I think some learners were able to copy already existing risk assessments and just make some adjustments. One person I spoke to said they did it in around 5 hours.

Most of the learners did not have very nice words to say about the course. Most of it boiled down to the course not actually being benificial in the workplace. They saw it as a tick box for the business to show that safety training was being given.

I think the course is probably massively more benficial done face to face where a trainer can expand on the topics.

Mathew

Edited by user 23 April 2024 07:10:08(UTC)  | Reason: Grammar

thanks 4 users thanked M.cooper.99 for this useful post.
chris42 on 23/04/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 23/04/2024(UTC), MikeKelly on 23/04/2024(UTC), Kate on 23/04/2024(UTC)
HSSnail  
#3 Posted : 23 April 2024 06:59:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Hi Chris

I have been delivering Managing Safely for about 8 years - yes you could probably get through all the slides IOSH provide in 3 hours, but not sure how much you would benefit from the course! It is possible to pass the exam even without doing the course with a bit of luck. When i deliver i use the IOSH slides (you have to as part of the licence agreement) as a frame work but i always use examples form the actual work activities the candidates work in - so always a bit of work for me before the course starts. You get far more out of the class room discussions than the course on its own provides.

There is a second part to the exam which is producing a risk assessment to demonstrate you have understood the concept or Hazard, Likelihood and consequence - no idea how you manage that online.

thanks 5 users thanked HSSnail for this useful post.
chris42 on 23/04/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 23/04/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 23/04/2024(UTC), MikeKelly on 23/04/2024(UTC), Kate on 23/04/2024(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 23 April 2024 09:01:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

 I have been delivering the Managing Safety Course  for 6 years now and I cannot see how anybody could do it in 3 hours unless they had done something similar before eg if they had the NEBOSH National Certificate  but if they had done that why would they be bothering with the IOSH. We take 4 whole days to deliver the course including the exam and then as HSSnail says they have to do the risk assessment  assignment based on process/procedure in their workplace. The scripts can be reviewed by IOSH and of course you have to sign a declaration this this is your own work.  

Sorry can’t see how you can do it properly in 3 hours.

thanks 3 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 23/04/2024(UTC), MikeKelly on 23/04/2024(UTC), chris42 on 24/04/2024(UTC)
MikeKelly  
#5 Posted : 23 April 2024 11:14:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MikeKelly

Bonjour 

Perhaps IOSH will investigate?

They ought to?

Regards

Mike

PS I wonder who runs said company? 

thanks 3 users thanked MikeKelly for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 23/04/2024(UTC), Kate on 23/04/2024(UTC), chris42 on 24/04/2024(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#6 Posted : 23 April 2024 11:54:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

somebody should tell IOSH, unless they monitor this forum. Except there does not seem to be much evidence that they pay any attention to us on the forum. 

thunderchild  
#7 Posted : 23 April 2024 13:37:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
thunderchild

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

somebody should tell IOSH, unless they monitor this forum. Except there does not seem to be much evidence that they pay any attention to us on the forum. 

They would have to care about this forum to monitor it, which I (personally) don't believe they do.

thanks 1 user thanked thunderchild for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 24/04/2024(UTC)
peter gotch  
#8 Posted : 23 April 2024 14:40:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Chris, the idea that this course could be completed in 3 hours even if that excludes time on a bespoke risk assessment is rather scary (as is what M.cooper.99 has said on this thread) and ultimately liable to detract from the credibility of IOSH's core training product offering, with IOSH claiming on its website >60,000 "certified" in 2023. IOSH Managing Safely awareness course | IOSH

IOSH does seem to be a bit coy about exactly how long the e-learning version should take in terms of minimum hours but at IOSH Managing Sustainably - trainer brochure it says to its training providers (presumably primarily for face to face tuition):

• flexibility in course delivery over three days (with a minimum 22 hours of face-to-face contact)

Originally, as I recall, the minimum was 24 hours usually delivered over 4 or even 5 days, though some providers went for extended days to get the number of days down to three. 

This was similar to the approach taken by e.g. the Institution of Civil Engineers which used to have a rule that every graduate engineer had to attend at least four days of H&S training during their graduate training programme which typically lasted 3 years.

 A day was a defined term - a minimum of 6 hours "contact time" - so you didn't count the time drinking tea or coffee at breaks, nor the lunch break UNLESS genuine learning was continuing during such periods. When I was developing and delivering courses I also discounted the time spent at the beginning and ending of a course, which was the "I'm X, the presenter, please give us a brief summary of who each of you is and why you are here" and then often a "wash up" session. All of which meant that to get 6 hours "contact time" you usually needed at least 7.5 hours. 

In contrast, the latest brochure for delegates says absolutely nowt about how long this should take. managing-safely-fact-sheet.pdf (iosh.com)

I suggest you feedback your concerns about what is happening to IOSH.

The problem with that is that IOSH seem to think that there is no grey area between a "complement" and a "complaint".

However it is possible that the training providers is delivering outside the terms of their approval by IOSH.

On IOSH's Complaints and feedback page Feedback and complaints | IOSH  it comments in relation to potential complaints about what one of its approved Training providers do.....

If a company or individual who is selling IOSH training products fails to meet your expectations, or you have a suspicion that a training provider is operating outside the IOSH terms and conditions of sale.

If the market loses confidence in this product there will be a gaping hole in the business model for IOSH Services Ltd.

thanks 4 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
Kate on 23/04/2024(UTC), HSSnail on 24/04/2024(UTC), chris42 on 24/04/2024(UTC), MikeKelly on 25/04/2024(UTC)
HSSnail  
#9 Posted : 24 April 2024 07:02:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

If the market loses confidence in this product there will be a gaping hole in the business model for IOSH Services Ltd.

And thats the bit thats going to get them to sit up and take notice!
thanks 5 users thanked HSSnail for this useful post.
chris42 on 24/04/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 24/04/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 24/04/2024(UTC), Kate on 24/04/2024(UTC), MikeKelly on 25/04/2024(UTC)
chris42  
#10 Posted : 24 April 2024 08:24:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

You have all confirmed my thoughts that this course should take more time than that to do and that the fact you can get through it (notice I didn’t say trained) in 3 hours plus a test seems wrong, and devalues the training for those n a taught course.

It seems you have two chances for the test and the risk assessment is not actual workplace based as such. It seems he was given a scenario of a pot hole in a pavement used by employees and the public. He had some sort of issue with it so it then gave him a different scenario and he passed.

I will actually be at the same location as him tomorrow so I can discuss a bit more.

I will not name the company, but I would say it was more prominent in the world of H&S 15 to 20 years ago (purely my opinion and could be wrong). It has been around a long long time and I sure you have all heard of it.

Of course I told my employer this was the right course. We wanted to allow the managers to learn at their own pace and around their work which can ebb and flow unique to them. I thought Online learning was ok because everyone was raving about NCRQ so I thought IOSH’s would be comparable. I would assume that IOSH would have vetted and approved this course if they will end up issuing certs.

I think it is too late for the others we have asked to do this as they will all have paid and started, but will think twice in future. IOSH Managing Safely was the go to training course for Managers.

Chris

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MikeKelly on 25/04/2024(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#11 Posted : 24 April 2024 10:44:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Is the content of the on-line IOSH managing safely  course radically different from the traditional course? I did look at it once and it looked just like  the traditional course but that was a few years ago. NCRQ  was very different as it was based on scenarios/case studies which where then used to introduce H&S concepts  each scenario leading you further into the world of H&S rather than the traditional module approach( Hazards Module, Risk Assessment  Module, Law Module Etc ).

Three hours is a very short period of time- it can take that long just to deliver the hazards module.  

thanks 3 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 24/04/2024(UTC), MikeKelly on 25/04/2024(UTC), chris42 on 26/04/2024(UTC)
peter gotch  
#12 Posted : 24 April 2024 11:02:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

HSSnail - "And thats the bit thats going to get them to sit up and take notice!"

Not sure that IOSH or IOSH Services Ltd are likely to take notice, until it is far too late.

Chris - "IOSH Managing Safely was the go to training course for Managers."

Emphasis on the past tense, but to be honest I was never convinced that it was suitable for all audiences. 

I think it WAS suitable for fairly simple organisations with people making and/or selling widgets, but without a lot of tailoring to make bespoke to an organisation's specific needs, not so suitable for the more complex organisations......

....though this was to some extent recognised by IOSH when it found variants for particular sectors.

In my last job we did all sorts of slightly less generic activities whether it was designing road bridges, and a multitude of hazardous field work activities (contract administration, rope access, diving, asbestos sampling, nighttime road coring, ecological surveys etc etc) and I didn't think IOSH MS would work for us - and for a while we had a licence to deliver MS so we had plenty of time to think about whether there would be benefit in rolling it out to our own managers.

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
chris42 on 26/04/2024(UTC)
M.cooper.99  
#13 Posted : 24 April 2024 11:28:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
M.cooper.99

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

Three hours is a very short period of time- it can take that long just to deliver the hazards module.  

On the online course one of the people at my workplace did, the only bit talking about hazards was 15 slides long with each slide having one to two sentences. I believe the one I got a look at used a ladder as an example and didn't use any additional workplace hazards. This excluded hazards like asbestos, working at height, confined spaces and display screen equipment that had their own specific sections.

A trainer could massively expand on those small sentences and relating them to the workplace, but this is a slideshow. My employer recently brought in a trainer to do face to face training on risk assessments. They were able to adapt it to the workplace. The learners actually had nice things to say, which is a first for H&S training in my workplace.

I don't think I will ever take the Managing Safely course, but I am seeing the exact same issues with my online NEBOSH General course. A big info dump without much to help, case study or relevant examples to show proper application of the learnt knowledge.

Mathew

Edited by user 24 April 2024 11:31:21(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks 3 users thanked M.cooper.99 for this useful post.
peter gotch on 24/04/2024(UTC), MikeKelly on 25/04/2024(UTC), chris42 on 26/04/2024(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#14 Posted : 24 April 2024 12:21:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

M. Cooper I hope that the course you mentioned was not the IOSH managing safely course. I have counted the slides on the Hazards module for that course and counted 82 slides. If you spend 2 minutes on each slide  that adds upto to 2 hours 44 minutes!

M.cooper.99  
#15 Posted : 24 April 2024 13:35:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
M.cooper.99

Apologies, reading back I worded my previous post terribly. There were 15 slides on hazards in the risk assessment section on the definition of a hazard and how a hazard becomes a risk. Hazards like asbestos and working at height had their own sections so they could mention the regs around them. There are around 90 slides total when you count each section. Although one slide is usually dedicated to a picture of someone in shiny new PPE or a state of agony.

thanks 1 user thanked M.cooper.99 for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 24/04/2024(UTC)
Jill Norris  
#16 Posted : 13 June 2024 06:30:30(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Jill Norris

Hi Chris,

It's surprising that the course was completed in just 3 hours, given that it typically spans 3 days. Online training can be more efficient, allowing learners to move at their own pace, but such a short duration is unusual.

To ensure thorough coverage of the material, it might be worth checking with the course provider. Additionally, you might want to explore other reputable providers for the IOSH Managing Safely course, such as:

These providers offer comprehensive online training options that might better suit your needs.

O'Donnell54548  
#17 Posted : 13 June 2024 16:10:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
O'Donnell54548

This appears to be the way the world is going now, I have seen an on-line CPR course.....god help us all 

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peter gotch on 14/06/2024(UTC)
chris42  
#18 Posted : 14 June 2024 08:26:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

It looks like a number of people have looked at this thread so I will update you. I spoke to the manager who did the training and he said that the training had lots of parts you could expand to define / provide more info on a term etc.

He said lots of these were obvious to him. He is an experienced manager and for instance although he has not been trained to do a risk assessment, he has seen a good few in his time and understood the principle etc. Over the years he and I have had lots of H&S conversations about various topics. All in all, this allowed him to run through quite quickly.

Another manager has also just completed the same training and it took him about 8.5 hours. Again, he is an experienced manager and again we have had lots of informal H&S conversations over the years (obviously didn’t listen to me as well as the other manager and he could have saved himself 4 hours).

I will be interesting when one of our less experienced managers go through the training.

IOSH must have vetted the content and deemed it worthy.

Did they learn anything / will it make a difference – Who knows, perhaps time will tell

Chris

peter gotch  
#19 Posted : 14 June 2024 13:11:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Chris

If we assume that on top of the time it takes to run through some slides, the delegate also has to do a risk assessment, then I guess that if would probably be feasible for an experienced manager who is used to OWNING H&S as an integral part of their role could speed through the slides (or as HSSnail has suggested ignore them entirely) AND pass the exam in 3 hours.

However, this poses the question as to why such a delegate is doing Managing Safely in the first place. Is it just to tick some box? If so is it effective use of company resources?

They might benefit far more from having something tailored to their role in THEIR workplace.

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
Kate on 14/06/2024(UTC)
Davidfilce  
#20 Posted : 14 June 2024 13:20:52(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Davidfilce

There is, in my opinon, a massive training issue with online training,

Even though there are benefits (eg travel etc), there are issues such us lack of contact time between delegates, ample, productive Q&A, interraction and discussion for example.

3 days is ample, 3 hours is not. H&S is a practical subject, not a read and understood only only one.

Fewer and fewer courses are online rather than face to face. In years to come we will see that the practical knowlege side of ours and other subjects will wane

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A Kurdziel on 14/06/2024(UTC)
craigroberts76  
#21 Posted : 17 June 2024 07:47:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
craigroberts76

Dont forget that the course is only an "Awareness" course, if people are highly skilled and may have been through the material and other on a regular basis then yes, they possibly could whizz through a lot of the material and still understand it. I deliver this in person and use lots of examples of our work activities, not something that can be done online, we have have lots of conversations about our hazards, again not something that can be replicated online. If you took these conversations, team activities, breaks and discussions out, then the 3 day course "could" be done in 1 day.

I have to deliver this as the client requests it, I dont think its what we need as it covers investigations and performance monitoring, but we have people employed that purely do that and the persons on the course wouldnt, so its not ideal, but isnt OFQUAL regulated,

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