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JaneL  
#1 Posted : 28 August 2024 13:17:07(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
JaneL

Hello, my workplace are considering this kit for use by trained and competent personnel to use in the event of someone needing rescue from a potential or known oxy-deficient atmosphere within a lab or similar environment. I believe the likelihood of this emergency happening (to be confirmed by risk assessment) would be very low based on other control measures such as buddy systems/lone worker procedure, alarm systems (personal and fixed).  My understanding is this kit was designed for use or escape in/from confined spaces. I've worked in many labs over the years and witnessed the very unsuccessful implementation of BA kit - took a lot of managing, created a lot of anxiety for the users because (even with regular training) they felt out of their depth using the kit, and when the RAs were reviewed it was concluded that there were more effective control measures (initially overlooked) to mitigate the risk. Even with this kit, I still have concerns about personnel entering areas that are potentially or known to be an oxygen-deficient atmosphere to rescue an unconscious person. As mentioned earlier, the likelihood of this happening is expected to be very low following RA review, and as we know doing drills is very different to a real emergency which can create another set of concerns that need considering. My view is that in the very unlikely event of someone becoming unconscious in a known or potential oxygen-deficient atmosphere (as a result of catastrophic failure in systems), do not put yourself and others at risk and call 999 (we are not in a remote area and emergency response time are good). Does anyone have any experience/thoughts they can share about this kit and type of scenarios/work environments it is used in? We have a supplier coming to our site to discuss, but I would be interested to hear the views of fellow H&S professionals. 

peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 28 August 2024 14:00:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Jane, your first posting here, so welcome to the Forums.

Every instinct I have says that treating a lab as a potential confined space where you might need rescue breathing apparatus is fraught with issues, one of which is that having risk assessed making a decisioni to provide the BA )(with all that goes with it - as you have noted) it would be MUCH more difficult to risk assess deciding to take the "precaution" away.

I have difficulty in imagining a lab that would need such equipment unless:

(a) it were in some labyrinthine structure in which the Evil opponents of e.g. James Bond are plotting domination and in such places the employers are probably not too bothered about the H&S of the workers who are probably mostly disposable. 

(b) you are trying to recreate something akin to a Space Station on Earth.

I could imagine a lab for e.g. an underground mine but would generally expect that the lab would be outide  - for the simple reason that you want as few higher risk activities as practical to be done near where an incident is more likely to happen.

So, perhaps time to repeat what you have done previously and revisit the risk assessment to conclude that you shouldn't ever need to provide rescue BA.

Whilst you shouldn't rely on the emergency services for evacuations, if this lab goes up in flames, who do want to go in and rescue anyone who remains stuck inside? Someone who has been trained and perhaps does a monthly practice or someone who is actually competent to use the kit properly?

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
JaneL on 30/08/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 28 August 2024 14:20:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

A Kurdziel is a good source of laboratory / government observation.

Personally I have never worked in a lab where oxygen depletion has been an issue due to controls on the materials present.

The closest scenario was when our R&D team suggested working with liquid Nitrogen but here we controlled the risk with plenty of natural ventilation during use.

I did have training at one facility with BA but that was for a raw material spillage.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
JaneL on 30/08/2024(UTC), JaneL on 30/08/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 28 August 2024 14:20:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

A Kurdziel is a good source of laboratory / government observation.

Personally I have never worked in a lab where oxygen depletion has been an issue due to controls on the materials present.

The closest scenario was when our R&D team suggested working with liquid Nitrogen but here we controlled the risk with plenty of natural ventilation during use.

I did have training at one facility with BA but that was for a raw material spillage.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
JaneL on 30/08/2024(UTC), JaneL on 30/08/2024(UTC)
Elfin_Safety  
#5 Posted : 28 August 2024 14:55:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Elfin_Safety

Hi Jane

I have worked in labs where this was a consideration, due either to high pressure gas supplies or to cryogenics such as liquid nitrogen.

We had the benefit of a lot of chemical engineers who, as part of a HAZOP process, were able to do ventilation calcs and tell us whether an asphyxiating environment was credible. The result was that in one of the labs, which housed a large dewar of liquid nitrogen, we had oxygen sensors which would alarm inside and outside the lab at a level long before a person would be incapacitated. Personal oxygen sensors were required for some transient work in other locations.

Rescue sets are widely used (well, made available at least) on larger plant where there is the potential to have to travel a long distance through a cloud of released material, but I've never seen them put to use in a lab environment where it is much easier to design out the risk. Although they're a bit more foolproof, users still have to be competent and confident, just as they do for BA.

We did have BA and were competent in its use but that was more for potential toxic releases from plant in ventilated enclosures. In any case, unless you have a team who are trained, confident and well practiced specifically for a rescue situation, you absolutely should not be counting on them to rescue a person from an asphyxiant environment.

thanks 3 users thanked Elfin_Safety for this useful post.
LancBob on 28/08/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 28/08/2024(UTC), JaneL on 30/08/2024(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#6 Posted : 28 August 2024 15:01:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

A Kurdziel a good source of laboratory / government observation here!

I think that the first question is how you think you might  get this accidental oxygen depleted atmosphere in a laboratory?

My first thought is that you are storing dewars containing cell lines in a poorly ventilated room.

thanks 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 28/08/2024(UTC), JaneL on 30/08/2024(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#7 Posted : 29 August 2024 13:20:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Further to the use of BA kits in a lab setting, in a previous life we had labs where they carried out fumigation experiments in controlled chambers. If there was a leak of fumigant you would need some sort of self-rescue kit. Users had to be trained and have the confidence to use these kits.  But these were toxic gases and fumes we were dealing with, not just depleted oxygen levels.  In the case of Dewars  and the  like  the best solution is not to keep them in poorly ventilated rooms. Unfortunately, what tends to happen is that the Dewars often end up in the smallest, pokiest room which nobody else wants!

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
JaneL on 30/08/2024(UTC)
John D C  
#8 Posted : 29 August 2024 17:19:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John D C

From my days in the chemical industry rescue sets were used solely to enable persons to escape the building in the event of a catastrophic failure with the ammonia refrigeration unit. The sets were classed as 10 minute sets which meant that they lasted about 10minutes whe moving at speed. They were normally held in a bag that went over the shoulder. They were not intended to be worn by someone who was entering the hazardous area to rescue another person. The rescuers used 30 minutes full breathing sets. The escape set is unlikely to give rescuers time to enter tbe laboratory, find the person who has been overcome and get them to safety.
thanks 3 users thanked John D C for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 30/08/2024(UTC), JaneL on 30/08/2024(UTC), Holliday42333 on 02/09/2024(UTC)
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