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A Kurdziel  
#1 Posted : 13 September 2024 15:38:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

OK here is a scenario. We get some new equipment and our in house PAT tester checks it out.  It fails the insulation part of the test. He expects it to be 1Mꭥ and it turns up as 0.29 Mꭥ , so he fails it.He repeats the test with another  piece of testing equipment and gets the same results.

The user of the equipment is not happy, and she contacts the supplier who tell her that there is nothing wrong with the equipment and it is safe to use. They also say   “As stated on its datasheet, this pump complies with EMC Directive 2014/30/EU regulations and has a CE certification. The PAT test is specific to your area. To our knowledge, this does not make the pump unfit for use, and we do not plan to take any action regarding this test result.”

So who to believe, the PAT tester is not a qualified electrician, but he scrupulously followed the agreed protocol while the supplier says its safe to use.

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 13 September 2024 16:47:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

If supplied goods were always perfect there would be no need for product recalls and we would not see reports of fires arising from electrical goods.

That CE declaration is exactly that a signed statement about electrical magnetic compatability not a certificate that the product in your possession is safe.

https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/single-market/ce-marking_en

Bottom of the page needs nailing to the supplier - Please note that a CE marking does not indicate that a product have been approved as safe by the EU or by another authority.

You could contact electrical safety first https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/ for more advice

OR report the goods to the Office for Product Safety & Standards

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/consumer-products-reporting-product-safety-issues

Even if you got an external electrician to check I suspect the result would be the same.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
MikeKelly on 14/09/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 14/09/2024(UTC), MikeKelly on 14/09/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 14/09/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 13 September 2024 16:47:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

If supplied goods were always perfect there would be no need for product recalls and we would not see reports of fires arising from electrical goods.

That CE declaration is exactly that a signed statement about electrical magnetic compatability not a certificate that the product in your possession is safe.

https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/single-market/ce-marking_en

Bottom of the page needs nailing to the supplier - Please note that a CE marking does not indicate that a product have been approved as safe by the EU or by another authority.

You could contact electrical safety first https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/ for more advice

OR report the goods to the Office for Product Safety & Standards

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/consumer-products-reporting-product-safety-issues

Even if you got an external electrician to check I suspect the result would be the same.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
MikeKelly on 14/09/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 14/09/2024(UTC), MikeKelly on 14/09/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 14/09/2024(UTC)
Kate  
#4 Posted : 14 September 2024 09:34:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I don't understand the statement "The PAT test is specific to your area."  As far as I know, PAT is done in a highly standardised way.

The CE declaration and data sheet of course only make claims about the model, not about the unit you have purchased which may or may not have defects arising from its manufacture or delivery.

Is the manufacturer claiming in the response to your concern just that the model is safe (according to its design), or that the unit you have purchased is safe (given the insulation performance measured by your tester)?

Have they told you what their quality specification states the insulation performance should be?  (Is this stated on the data sheet?)

thanks 2 users thanked Kate for this useful post.
MikeKelly on 14/09/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 14/09/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#5 Posted : 14 September 2024 10:47:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The comment about PAT testing sounds like an overseas supplier who could also have stated the need for a fused three pin earthed plug is unique to your area given many countries use a two pin often unearthed arrangement.

Bigger players include a UK plug lead, some include switchable two / three pin arrangements (e.g. Apple chargers) whilst others provide some kind of case system which does not include earth or fuse.

As mentioned in another thread if the supplier plug & lead looks wrong it gets replaced.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 14/09/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 14/09/2024(UTC), Kate on 14/09/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 14/09/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 14 September 2024 10:47:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The comment about PAT testing sounds like an overseas supplier who could also have stated the need for a fused three pin earthed plug is unique to your area given many countries use a two pin often unearthed arrangement.

Bigger players include a UK plug lead, some include switchable two / three pin arrangements (e.g. Apple chargers) whilst others provide some kind of case system which does not include earth or fuse.

As mentioned in another thread if the supplier plug & lead looks wrong it gets replaced.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 14/09/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 14/09/2024(UTC), Kate on 14/09/2024(UTC), peter gotch on 14/09/2024(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#7 Posted : 16 September 2024 09:43:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

We have sound ourselves in-between a rock and a hard place; the piece of equipment it now turns out passed its test last year but failed this year; this year the  PAT tester followed the protocol and retested the item using different equipment and it still failed. As Kate said we are not clear what the manufacturer comments actual mean. They imply that the item is safe according to their tests but have not yet supplied used with actual data; just a declaration that it has passed.

One of the pumps does have a European style plug with a UK adaptor. Perhaps we should replace it with a UK plug/lead and see what that does?  

Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 16 September 2024 10:22:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Isn't the point of PAT to determine if there has been any non-visible deterioration over time in the electrical safety of portable appliances?

I must admit that reading your original post I had (it appears wrongly) presumed this kit was new straight from the supplier rather than having been in service for what sounds to be a year plus given this is the second test. Those numbers suggest an internal insulation breakdown has developed.

For a UK supplied item you do have a 12 month warranty under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 however this would not apply if the issue arises from miss-use or poor maintenance. You could potentially argue a longer period under the Consumer Protection Act 2015 as this refers to the item lasting for a "reasonable period of time" typically taken as the normal operational life for equivalent items.

Is the cost of replacement or repair worth the battle?

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 16/09/2024(UTC), Kate on 16/09/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 16 September 2024 10:22:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Isn't the point of PAT to determine if there has been any non-visible deterioration over time in the electrical safety of portable appliances?

I must admit that reading your original post I had (it appears wrongly) presumed this kit was new straight from the supplier rather than having been in service for what sounds to be a year plus given this is the second test. Those numbers suggest an internal insulation breakdown has developed.

For a UK supplied item you do have a 12 month warranty under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 however this would not apply if the issue arises from miss-use or poor maintenance. You could potentially argue a longer period under the Consumer Protection Act 2015 as this refers to the item lasting for a "reasonable period of time" typically taken as the normal operational life for equivalent items.

Is the cost of replacement or repair worth the battle?

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Kate on 16/09/2024(UTC), Kate on 16/09/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 03 October 2024 07:28:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

kalmaneugeneryan REPORTED SPAM

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 03/10/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 03/10/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 03 October 2024 07:28:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

kalmaneugeneryan REPORTED SPAM

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 03/10/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 03/10/2024(UTC)
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