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chris42  
#1 Posted : 11 November 2024 10:58:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

The question I have is what is considered an acceptable qualification for those that come to your place of work and carry out PAT /EET.

The equipment for us in not just office based but equipment that operate in what I would call  harsher conditions and a more industrial type setting.

I know that PAT is not legally required and so no legislative qualifications, but the law does require safe equipment and so some form of inspection is appropriate, most companies use PAT or as it now seems to be called EET (Electrical Equipment Testing).

Now there is C&G2377 training, which is specifically for this, but what other qualifications would also be deemed acceptable. Ie would someone with C&G 2391-50 or 2391-52 be acceptable? once source of info a training company seems to suggest it is, but not 2391-51.

Now for your EICR you would need 2391-51 or -52, and your 2391-50 for initial verification. But are these acceptable for simple PAT / EET. Indeed, then is the older 2391 before it changed to 2394 and 2395 and back again ok.

In fact, there are a myriad of electrical qualifications out there, are any of them normally deemed acceptable.

Previously we have always had subcontractors with the C&G 2377, but oddly we seem to be encountering some difficulty since covid (in all trades not just this). We do have qualified electricians we use around the country and some of them say they can do PA testing but have a “higher” qualification and not 2377.

Now I also know the requirement is to be competent and that is a mix of experience and qualifications. But it is not normally as easy to judge experience than the qualifications and should something happen people will want to see the qualifications. I would like to think that a fully qualified electrician could carry out PAT but why does this confirmation not exist anywhere. I have been on the NICEIC web site and they state they require C&G2377 to be listed for PAT, but don’t mention if they accept other qualifications.

We had an incident a few years ago where we were expected to provide the qualifications of the person who did the testing. Luckily it was an employee at the time who had been on the C&G course, so we could at least prove qualifications. Our masters are not just the Law and HSE, but insurance companies and general moral considerations for just doing right.

So, is there any formal guidance out there on this for employers? what do you do.

Chris

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 11 November 2024 11:30:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

At a previous employment we bit the bullet, bought the kit and had our maintenance team trained in its operation by the manufacturer (lovely piece of kit assigned tracking numbers, kept records, issued reminders and printed the labels) - even I picked up how to use it in a ten minute session.

Current employer we have a facilities management team who arrange the various contracts across a number of providers - interestingly "competence requirements" do not seem to appear in any purchase order despite providers being screened by the Supplier Assessment system.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
chris42 on 11/11/2024(UTC), LancBob on 11/11/2024(UTC), chris42 on 11/11/2024(UTC), LancBob on 11/11/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 11 November 2024 11:30:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

At a previous employment we bit the bullet, bought the kit and had our maintenance team trained in its operation by the manufacturer (lovely piece of kit assigned tracking numbers, kept records, issued reminders and printed the labels) - even I picked up how to use it in a ten minute session.

Current employer we have a facilities management team who arrange the various contracts across a number of providers - interestingly "competence requirements" do not seem to appear in any purchase order despite providers being screened by the Supplier Assessment system.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
chris42 on 11/11/2024(UTC), LancBob on 11/11/2024(UTC), chris42 on 11/11/2024(UTC), LancBob on 11/11/2024(UTC)
chris42  
#4 Posted : 12 November 2024 09:53:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Thanks Roundtuit. Yes up until covid we also had our own person trained to go around our various sites. However, since then we have been using external providers local to each of our premises. This has resulted in a variation in the levels of training accepted at each place. Initially everyone we employed seemed to have the C&G2377, however this appears to be getting more difficult it seems.

I think some were just accepting anyone with any form of electrical training willing to put a sticker on and some just accepting C&G2377, and some seemed to have what might be considered a “higher qualification”.

I think just accepting anyone who is willing to put a sticker on, not good, as faulty equipment could easily kill. So I was hoping to find some sort of definitive ( Ok I know its unlikely) standard that should be accepted as doing our legal and moral duty.

Part of me is also concerned that just because someone is competent to install wiring and sockets etc in a building does not necessarily give them the knowledge to deal with electronic equipment.

Perhaps I’m over thinking this, and others just accept anyone willing to put a sticker on. One manager said to me, surly they would not be doing it if they were not competent! Another comment was that they used a company from NICEIC who deemed that company capable of PAT. However, that just means someone in the company can do it (suitable qualification) and not necessarily the person they send to you. NICEIC say they require C&G2377, but the person who came out to us did not have it.

I guess I’m no further forward in being able to advise our managers.

Chris

chris42  
#5 Posted : 15 November 2024 13:15:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

As there is a number of views for this topic so a bit of an update, not that it helps me advise our managers.

I contacted the NICEIC people and asked them what qualifications they required to allow a company to be listed on their web site for PAT.

The answer – they need to be competent! (they used a lot more waffle words along with these)

So about as useful as a chocolate tea pot, except at least with a chocolate tea pot you have some molten chocolate to eat.

Given this some more thought it would be pointless specifying a contractor carrying out any electrical work needs to be registered with NICEIC as you still have to check the qualifications of the individual that actually turn up.

There have been over 200 views so there is a bit of interest but not many comments, so I read into this that others don’t check qualifications. So as long as the contractor appears to check and puts a sticker on they don’t look any deeper. I guess in the past we also did this, it was only when an insurance company asked us to prove competence we looked further.

I guess I will continue to search to see if there is an actual answer out there. I wounder what a court of law would deem acceptable, should someone be electrocuted.

Chris

Edited by user 15 November 2024 14:58:50(UTC)  | Reason: contract should have been contractor

Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 15 November 2024 14:49:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The insurance company really needs to challenge government.

It is the one piece of legislation I like to table when someone raises the question of competence (for anything) as the Electricity Regulations merrily state those working with electricity should be "competent" but those same regulations are wholly devoid of any prescription or definition of what a competent electrician should be.

Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 15 November 2024 14:49:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The insurance company really needs to challenge government.

It is the one piece of legislation I like to table when someone raises the question of competence (for anything) as the Electricity Regulations merrily state those working with electricity should be "competent" but those same regulations are wholly devoid of any prescription or definition of what a competent electrician should be.

peter gotch  
#8 Posted : 16 November 2024 16:20:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Chris

Reference #5, I think you can sleep reasonably easy if it comes to worrying about what an enforcing authority might do if it were to come to an electrocution.

I trawled through the HSE fatal accident online narratives at the beginning of 2019 to look for accidents where the direct cause might be electricity, so I included fire/explosion incidents in my search.

Data from April 2013 to the last relevant entry being in October 2018 - there is a time lag before these things get published.

Also looked at the HSE stats for years 2013-14 to 2018/18 so a five year period. That indicated an average of 6 work-related electrical fatalities a year.

The fatal accident narratives took that up to a maximum of 8 a year but including some incidents involving fire/explosion where I couldn't find enough information to discount electricity as being the initiator. 

It is possible that I didn't pick up e.g. a scenario where someone has an electrical shock and then falls from a platform as that would be categorised as "fall from height" but these are going to be very rare.

About half the deaths from contact or arcing with electricity involve inadvertent exposure to overhead power lines. With one exception all involved plant travelling underneath. The exception was someone on the roof of a new build house constructed with a roof just 1.5m below the power line - don't ask me how that got planning p permission without a diversion of the line!

By looking at the information that I could find on each fatality many of the other cases involved "live working" - not taking the precautions which have been required since the Electricity (Special Regulations) 1908 and 1944 and continued in the current EAW Regs.

I can't remember EVER hearing of an accident that would have been prevented by PAT testing rather than fairly simply looking for obvious faults such as plugs being incorrectly wired (Rare these days as most portable equipment comes with moulded plugs).

....and PAT testing equipment is relatively simple to operate. Does someone REALLY need some specific certificate of competence?

 

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
chris42 on 17/11/2024(UTC)
chris42  
#9 Posted : 17 November 2024 10:12:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

That is very interesting Peter, those stats are much lower than I would have expected. We had an incident around 6 years ago where the roof suddenly started to leak, right at the apex of the roof would you believe. It was apparently only a drip, but it landed on a piece of electrical / electronic equipment which was on a metal trolly ( as supplied). They claimed that they moved the trolly from under the drip and got a shock and hurt their arm as it was flung back. They didn’t consider unplugging it first. No witnesses!

By complete chance that piece of kit had been PA tested in the morning, and the insurance company the wanted to know the details and specifically the training record for the individual that did the PA test. The equipment was segregated and then tested again before going back into use and it had no problems.

Legal requirements want us to provide a safe system of work and with that equipment used. Insurance companies want the earth when something happens, but morally we don’t want to hurt anyone. There is a split opinion where I work if a normal sparky training should allow them to PA test. Just because they know about putting wires in / on a wall, does that make them competent to test electronic equipment (everything has electronics in it these days).

It is however looking more like if they have any electrical qualification then they can PA test. However, why then create a specific training course and why is there no information out there to state they could do this work.

As per Roundtuit’s comment I think it would help if they didn’t change the electrical qualifications every 2 to 3 years. That way us punters would stand a chance of keeping up.

Chris

peter gotch  
#10 Posted : 18 November 2024 15:13:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Chris

1. It would indeed be helpful if there was some guidance on what training and/or competence might be appropriate for someone doing PAT testing, and that the guidance stayed reasonably stable for a while.

2. Insurance companies tend to add their own "blue tape" to demand this, that and the other that may not be legally required or even appropriate. 

3. Electric shocks are, of course, relatively common whether at the workplace or outside. I guess most adults will have received at least one mains voltage shock in their lifetime. Fortunately almost invariably without significant injury. So it tends to be either dead/very seriously hurt or walk away almost unscathed.

When I did the earlier research via a link to RIDKIND database from http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/causinj/kinds-of-accident.pdf

numbers of NON-fatal injuries assigned as down to electricity in HSE stats in 2017/18

Contact with electricity or electrical discharge

212

23

189

 

<1%

<1%

<1%

So the first column [The six number were in a horizontal line when I pasted them!!!] would be the total reported NON-fatals, second column "specified injuries", third column "O7D injuries" and then three columns indicating less (perhaps MUCH less) than 1% of each of those three.

When I worked for HSE its H&S Policy had a small number of appendices. One said e.g. that an Inspector could not enter a compressed air tunnel without first being accompanied by someone from HSE who knew what they were doing (well words to that effect"). Only did this once which meant summoning up the ONLY person in HSE who fitted the person spec up to Scotland from London.

However, one of the other appendices which would be relevant to almost every HSE Inspector was the one which said that only Specialist Electrical Inspectors could enter a live substation. 

To get appointed as a Specialist Electrical Inspector you had to know what the rules for high voltage (as defined - so much higher than 240v or 415v) working were to the letter. 

....and in practice, accidents to those doing work on high voltage equipment in the UK very, very rarely get injured as a result of the electricity they are near. The rules have been in place for many decades and are rigidly applied. 

Hence you might read about a linesman falling from e.g. a MEWP but are very unlikely to hear of them being electrocuted.

Edited by user 18 November 2024 15:15:47(UTC)  | Reason: Explanation of formatting issue!

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