Rank: Forum user 
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Employee whilst lifting a box felt a pain within her left knee, Employee suffers from an existing condition that was not disclosed prior to the injury occurring. Upon investigation the employee is fully trained in manual handling procedures and the weight of the box lifted consisted of 10KG only. The cause is concluded as a pre exiting condition that was not recognised as it was not disclosed . So would you record as work accident or not?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Injuries themselves, eg ‘feeling a sharp twinge’, are not accidents. There must be an identifiable external event that causes the injury, eg a falling object striking someone http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/key-definitions.htm
Pre-existing or not I don't think this counts as an accident. The box didn't dtrike her. She didn't fall. Nothing fell onto her. I would be intersted to dee if others agree.
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 1 user thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
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10Kg only?
If you follow the HSE guidance dependent upon where the box was and where it was expected to be moved to picking up a 1Kg bag of sugar from the floor whilst twisting is an excessive mass to move. Think you have too readily formed a conclusion about the pre-existing condition and should evaluate what the trained employee was actually doing.
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2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user
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10Kg only?
If you follow the HSE guidance dependent upon where the box was and where it was expected to be moved to picking up a 1Kg bag of sugar from the floor whilst twisting is an excessive mass to move. Think you have too readily formed a conclusion about the pre-existing condition and should evaluate what the trained employee was actually doing.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I agree with Roundtuit. My answer was solely based on whether it was an accident. Even if this wasn't an accident I would still be investigating it properly. As Rounduit states, you also need to look at why this box was being moved manually. Never blame individuals as it doen't help you prevent this from happening again.
Could the box have been left where it was? Could you have used MHE to move the box? Was help available? Would it have been possible to reduce the weight? etc.
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1 user thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
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Remember, an event has taken place an injury has occurred (regardless of being a pre-condition as you have previously assumed). There is a need to consider in indetifying the underlying conditions: - Where they following Procedures, Rules and, or Standards;
- Protective Methods used/not used;
- Inattention / Lack of Awareness;
- Protective Systems used/not used;
- Vehicles, Plant, Equipment and Tools used/not used;
- Workplace Exposures e.g. Physical, Radiation, Surface Conditions etc.;
- Workplace Environment/Layout.
Only then can you consider the task and environmental conditions that deliver a deeper dive into the underlying causes in looking at the task and environmental conditions attributed to the Human & Workplace Factors. So yes, it can be regarded as an accident. As to the investigation, that is what you are required to conduct to prevent recurrence.
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Rank: Forum user
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The incident was fully investigated and CCTV was available. The IP moved the box from a pallet at waist height onto a trolley to be taken into the warehouse. The IP assessed the weight of the box before lifting so all looked exactly as trained. After doing this the IP complained of pain in the knee, and then mentioned a pre-existing knee injury.
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The question was answered in the first post but, as per usual we have patronising comments assuming the OP has failed in all sorts of areas.
The post clearly states 'upon investigation,' and then asks a simple 'yes or no' question to clarify a technical point. Suddenly a load of nonsense about a bag of sugar on the floor and a load of irrelevant bullet points about underlying conditions.
It is not necessary to talk down to people - just answer the question
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1 user thanked WatsonD for this useful post.
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Thanks WatsonD,
thats why I went back with the info on the investigation , wonder why I so raley use this forum, guess I know why from the first few response!!
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Rank: Forum user
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personally i would not count it as an accident. i would look at your requirements for employees doing their role. do you require them to notify the company of any condition that may affect tbeir work? if yes why did the employee fail to tell you in advance.
mike
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: WatsonD  The post clearly states 'upon investigation,' and then asks a simple 'yes or no' question to clarify a technical point.
Yes or No requires more information than was present in the OP e.g. "was lifting the box", this was expanded upon in the subsequent posting
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: WatsonD The post clearly states 'upon investigation,' and then asks a simple 'yes or no' question to clarify a technical point.
Yes or No requires more information than was present in the OP e.g. "was lifting the box", this was expanded upon in the subsequent posting
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Rank: Super forum user
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But does "lifting a box" constitute an accident unless the box specifically injuries the person. i.e cuts them, is dropped on their foot etc.? The quote from RIDDOR suggests it is not. Or am I interpreting this wrong? I apprecaite there is an injury, and therefore as I said, I would investigate it. But on a semantic level, is it an accident (as the original post asked)?
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Originally Posted by: CptBeaky But does "lifting a box" constitute an accident unless the box specifically injuries the person. i.e cuts them, is dropped on their foot etc.? The quote from RIDDOR suggests it is not. Or am I interpreting this wrong? I apprecaite there is an injury, and therefore as I said, I would investigate it. But on a semantic level, is it an accident (as the original post asked)?
You are not wrong.
The injury is accidental but it was not caused by an accident.
RIDDOR is not the be all and end all for the wider matter of decisions concerning incident recording though.
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