People probably get sick of the constant RIDDOR questions on the forum so apologies in advance.

IP has slipped on a wet floor last Thursday and fallen heavily no witness to the actual incident and no CCTV.

No one is disputing the incident took place. 

Thursday IP attends A&E see the triage nurse then waits three hours to see  an unkown individual (whether it was a doctor or advanced qualified nurse) who uses a stethoscope to listen to breathing (I assume to listen out for a punctured lung which IP did not have) 

I believe the only way to determine if a rib(s) are broken is by an Xray. IP is back in work Monday on light duties. Do I have to take the IP's word that rib(s) are broken without this evidence? And therefore fill out a riddor report?

There is no written documentation or Xray to determine the rib(s) are broken. I don't know how you can tell that someones ribs are broken without an Xray to my knowledge its just not possible.

RIDDOR or not that is the question?

https://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/specified-injuries.htm

there may be no evidence of a fracture (e.g. if an x-ray is not taken), but the injury will still be reportable if a doctor considers it is likely there is a fracture.

So reportable

One way people can tell if they have a broken rib is pain when breathing, lifting or laughing - no x-ray required

Edited by user 20 January 2020 17:22:42(UTC)  | Reason: FFS

Xrays cost money. They also expose people to ionising radiation. In the case of a fractured rib, it may not even show-up on an xray. Usually an xray will only be considered if there is some sign of internal injury, for instance haemotysis. The younger the patient, the more reluctant they will be to xray.

Without going down the route of asking for the medical records of the visit it would be fairly safe to assume within the UK that if someone gets beyond the triage nurse in A&E a doctor will have been involved.

Then you have all the issues with patient confidentiallity and data protection to overcome should you choose to demand these documents be made available - let the true sceptics in insurance worry about this.

Unless you personally escorted the IP how sure are you they even attended A&E?

I would be very surprised if a broken rib could be identified without an Xray. Some years back I had an unfortunate fall and went to the Dr, who said I may have a broken or bruised rib(s). Either way not much can be done about it but rest and pain killers. 

“People probably get sick of the constant RIDDOR questions on the forum so apologies in advance”

YES

The reason is that people get hung up on whether this is a RIDDOR or not. I know why this is: the number of RIDDORS is used by many organisations as a metric for effective H&S performance.  Lots of RIDDORS = poor H&S is the equation. Of course RIDDOR of itself is not an admission of liability but many people see it as such.

What we should be asking is how could, the accident have been avoided in the first place. Why did the person slip in the first place, could something have been done to prevent this?

Instead we are trying to second guess a medical diagnosis!

As some has said RIDDOR is poor system for collecting data on work related accidents. Perhaps we should change this to either a self-reporting system for employees or make it a statutory duty on medical practitioners to report all work related accidents they come across.

YES I AM SICK OF RIDDOR

Whilst it wouldn't end up as RIDDOR, broken fingers and toes tend not to get x-rayed unless at a funny angle and obviously displaced.

The (unoffical rule) is; if it hurts for a week its bruised and it it hurts for more than a week its broken.  The treatment is exactly the same (strapping) for either option.

And yes; RIDDOR needs a revamp that won't happen under the current political desire for de-regulation.  If the Management Regs ACOP still hasn't been re-instated, what are the chances that RIDDOR will undergo a significant reform?

osteoporosis

Fall at an angle that forces your elbow into your ribs....

Surely it is not our place to investigate the validity of an injury, just the circumstances that lead to it. In terms of RIDDOR, we have to go by the expert advice. If they say it is broken, we must assume it is broken (or seek a second opinion from another expert).

Basically we report. We investigate the cause. We rectify any flaws we discover to ensure the chance of it happening again is minimized. We then check to see if the original RA/SSOW etc needs updating. (not necessarily in that order).

The HSE then puts it into a big pile and forgets about it until it comes to statistic day again....

From RIDDOR: Bone fractures include a break, crack or chip. They are reportable when diagnosed or confirmed by a doctor, including when they are specified on a GP ‘fit note’. In some cases, there may be no definitive evidence of a fracture (eg if an X-ray is not taken), but the injury will still be reportable if a doctor considers it is likely that there is a fracture. Self-diagnosed ‘suspected fractures’ are not reportable.

Unless I have written confirmation, I will not report it as a Major RIDDOR. In the long run it doesn't really make much difference.

Cpt Beaky

Fair point. I'm still confused to falling over and breaking ribs. I've never seen or heard of it before. Thats not to say it didn't happen but I'd of expected, broken coxis, hip, arm, clavicle before a rib. Unless he fell on something or was holding something close and that was between him and the ground when he impacted.

Originally Posted by: Mark-W

Theres no getting away from the incident, it happened but if the end result is just bruising rather than broken ribs the control measures that are implemented may not be proportionate?

There in lies the  joy of an accident investigation - twenty people have exactly the same fall under the exact same circumstances and we have twenty different outcomes ranging from a simple winding to a death.

The control measures are to prevent the fall occurring so how could they not be proprtionate?

Not academic really a broken bone is a specified injury and therefore an immediate report

Not strictly true - the HSE ask you to "notify without delay", but you still have 10 days to report a specified injury.  Only a death is an "immediate" report.

Edited by user 22 January 2020 10:35:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified