Rank: New forum user 
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Hi can anyone help please. I have an Ops manager who wants operators to touch up a generator chassis with aerosol paint. Previously and unbeknown to be he had them do this in a container. I have advised a paint spray booth and LEV as this is an ongoing issue. Operators are obviously and quite rightly complaining about the fumes as are those in the nearby vicinity. I have also advised on the correct PPE as outlined in the MSDS. He has come back to me and said if we use an air fed mask there should not be an issue (however a container provides no ventilation or extraction).
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hi She7914
Sounds like a manager who wants their cake but not the responsibility.
Some of this will come down to WHO owns the risk assessments (and in this case the COSHH and possibly DSEAR elements on risk assessment).
Essentially are they owned and signed off by line managers or is this transferred to A N Other such as the HSE person. Does the Ops Manager have to put their neck on the line as regards the H&S elements of their job - or not? In terms of the mitigations what is or is not reasonably practicable is going to be dependent on a number of variables including frequency and duration of the process and what is in the paint, e.g. if in addition to flammables and toxic solvents you might have some isocyanates. But your Ops Manager cannot easily put their finger in the air and say "No LEV required. Just put them in some respiratory protective equipment", but it easier for them to do this, if THEIR name is not on the risk assessment! You probably don't need to be told that relying on RPE brings with it a series of administrative measures that are time consuming and which might be avoided by technical control of the risks.
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 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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This sounds like a "touch-up" operation which would be very similar to activity covered in indg473 https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg473.pdf
Doing anything in a container other than loading/unloading should be a no, no - lighting, ventilation, temperature.....
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2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user
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This sounds like a "touch-up" operation which would be very similar to activity covered in indg473 https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg473.pdf
Doing anything in a container other than loading/unloading should be a no, no - lighting, ventilation, temperature.....
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2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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The RPE might protect the operator but how will everyone else be protected?
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1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
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Rank: New forum user
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Thanks so much for your replies, you have confirmed everything that I have said to him. He has been here three months and I am so concerned by some of the things he says in regards to safety I have a meeting with the CEO. For example, he believes that safety starts at the bottom!
He told me a few days ago that " he could go and buy paint off the shelf and not have all this carry on" I had to explain the difference between commercial and domestic use. This resulted in him shouting at me in front of my colleagues! and undermining me. He likes to tell me how they did things at his last place keeping it in my back pocket that I am aware his last company has had combined fines of over a million pounds in the last four years. Thirty years in safety and he brought me to tears. I am not prepared to compromise on the safety of staff performing the task! Just found out an hour he has stripped back the H&S notice board.
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Rank: Super forum user
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That sounds a very difficult position to be in. You have my sympathy and best wishes. Make sure to take care of yourself as well as everyone else.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Whats actualy in the Aerosol? If we are talking isocynates then i agree with above, but even many comercial car sprayers have moved to water basied paints. Sorry but what does the COSHH assessment say - dont want to make assumption - as you know what assuming does.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Originally Posted by: She7914  This resulted in him shouting at me in front of my colleagues! and undermining me. .................... Thirty years in safety and he brought me to tears. Just found out an hour he has stripped back the H&S notice board.
So, as well as a meeting with the CEO you also have one with HR. That sort of behaviour is unacceptable in this day and age. Its not a sign of weakness, but one of strength that you have right on your side and will not stand for bullying behaviour from anyone in a senior position. Even if what he said is correct, no need to shout and especially not in front of others. Is the team supposed to fear him now? If you get nowhere with CEO and this lets, call him “manager” for lack of other descriptor that can’t be posted, you always have the HSE with an anonymous call as a last resort. If employees are complaining, then it could be anyone.
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Rank: Forum user
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Originally Posted by: chris42 Originally Posted by: She7914 This resulted in him shouting at me in front of my colleagues! and undermining me. .................... Thirty years in safety and he brought me to tears. Just found out an hour he has stripped back the H&S notice board.
So, as well as a meeting with the CEO you also have one with HR. That sort of behaviour is unacceptable in this day and age. Its not a sign of weakness, but one of strength that you have right on your side and will not stand for bullying behaviour from anyone in a senior position. Even if what he said is correct, no need to shout and especially not in front of others. Is the team supposed to fear him now? If you get nowhere with CEO and this lets, call him “manager” for lack of other descriptor that can’t be posted, you always have the HSE with an anonymous call as a last resort. If employees are complaining, then it could be anyone.
THIS!!!! so much THIS!!! Please let us know how you got on. I have also been in that situation and its not good. I ended up walking out in the end. Had to save my sanity.
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Rank: Forum user
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So much of this goes on, and the company I do work for has more or less finanlly turned that corner of "chasing cash" to thinking about the safety of its work force first, and its not been easy and has taken about 4 years.... They use sprays are paints, the main difference between off the shelf at B&Q and your guys painting is that if he kills himself with fumes using B&Q paints and no PPE then he isnt going to be in court or prison... commerical is different. I did air samplying of aerosols in a normal office and recorded levels of Toulene and Xylene 2 mins, 15 mins and 40 mins after spraying. The levels were above the limits (100ppm STEL for xylene) after 2 mins, and was even higher after 15 mins as the drying process released more into the air. We concluded that a normal room with no aircon or windows (apx 5mx5m) had to be allowed to settle for 4hrs...! very few of their expert sprayers realised the drying process had this affect.
All their techs wear face fitted masks with A2 filters (40hrs of usage) and face fitted by qualified fit2fit testers and clean shaven policy in place. Which director is responsible for H&S in the company? what training do they have? We noticed the biggest difference once managers were put on a SMSTS course.
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