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chris42  
#1 Posted : 10 January 2022 16:45:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

While discussing the issue internally and that my view was that people didn’t get as much a they may think, I seem to recollect in the dim and distant past seeing a list. This list had different types of accident and how much they may expect to get. The things were listed although not necessarily a complete list ( it was over 10 years ago now though) but did list loss of sight in one eye, broken arm, broken leg, amputation of finger/ hand/ leg /arm and things like that.

I seem to recall from way over 10 years ago a sub-contractor a previous company used to use, fell off a client’s scaffold and lost a leg, and got just over £200k. Not sure if a hand might be considered to be more valuable than a leg, or if even the loss of a finger would be even seen as a significant thing (would be to me)

Does such a thing exist, probably doesn’t but thought I would ask you knowledgeable people. I suppose solicitors must have something as a starting point though. I should imagine it could be based on age and numerous other factors.

No issue just a curious question, so I thought I would ask.

Chris

t.considine  
#2 Posted : 10 January 2022 17:17:32(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
t.considine

Hi Chris, I seem to remember something similar but would the compensation be based on many factors including the IP's culpability, 

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 10 January 2022 19:40:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The insurance companies certainly had such charts to guide decisions when contesting claims.

£200K sounds like an exceptional payment for loss of a limb - human life is unfortunately quite cheap.

Recent holiday insurances listed Death/Permanent Disablement/Loss of Limb or eyes as up to £20K cover

Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 10 January 2022 19:40:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

The insurance companies certainly had such charts to guide decisions when contesting claims.

£200K sounds like an exceptional payment for loss of a limb - human life is unfortunately quite cheap.

Recent holiday insurances listed Death/Permanent Disablement/Loss of Limb or eyes as up to £20K cover

Kate  
#5 Posted : 10 January 2022 19:44:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

You have not imagined this, or if you have then I have too.

I believe it is called a "tariff".

chris42  
#6 Posted : 11 January 2022 09:02:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Thanks all

Yes, any claim may have an element deducted due to the IP culpability, but there has to be some sort of start point. I think the list came from someone on this site which may have had some links to an insurance company. I think the claim I remember was because it had a significant effect on his job (which again will have a bearing on any claim).

Thanks Kate, from your post I had a quick internet search for “tariff”, but seemed to be focused on whiplash. I didn’t realise there was a specific list for this. The search also showed up NHS charges for Injury cost recovery (ICR). The ICR scheme is that those responsible for causing injury to others should meet the cost of NHS treatment. NHS costs are recovered only where personal injury compensation is paid, for example after a road traffic accident. Funds recovered come primarily from a third-party compensator/insurer.

If anyone knows of a link to a more recent list it would be interesting to look at. These costs may be paid out by insurance companies but ultimately will be paid for by the employer.

Chris

CptBeaky  
#7 Posted : 11 January 2022 09:42:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Currently doing my NCRQ diploma and I have access to a list for this called 

"Judicial College - Guidelines for the assessment of general damages in personal injury cases" (14th edition) (published by Oxford University Press)

Due to copyright I doubt I am allowed to sure this, but a search might bring something up.

thanks 1 user thanked CptBeaky for this useful post.
chris42 on 11/01/2022(UTC)
achrn  
#8 Posted : 11 January 2022 09:46:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post

Thanks Kate, from your post I had a quick internet search for “tariff”, but seemed to be focused on whiplash.

Whiplash has specific regs - The Whiplash Injury Regulations 2021 - which set a tariff.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/642/regulation/2/made

I think you're looking for the Judicial College 'Guidelines for the Assessment of General Damages in Personal Injury Cases' aka JSB guidelines. A google will find you extracts, getting the actual guidleines seems to require spending money.  

thanks 1 user thanked achrn for this useful post.
chris42 on 11/01/2022(UTC)
chris42  
#9 Posted : 11 January 2022 10:15:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Thank you a quick google gave me this list, but it looks like there are others also.

https://www.rcsolicitors.co.uk/site-login/resources/documents/personal-injury-damages-guide.pdf

Some of the numbers are a little higher than I was expecting, but of course nowadays the solicitor fee (up to 25% I think) comes from the amount awarded.

Chris

achrn  
#10 Posted : 11 January 2022 10:21:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post

Thank you a quick google gave me this list, but it looks like there are others also.

https://www.rcsolicitors.co.uk/site-login/resources/documents/personal-injury-damages-guide.pdf

That says 10th edition, another quick google suggests it's currently at 15th edition, so there might be significant differences.

thanks 1 user thanked achrn for this useful post.
chris42 on 11/01/2022(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 11 January 2022 10:27:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Hopefully in this age of "equality" addressing the male / female disparities

Roundtuit  
#12 Posted : 11 January 2022 10:27:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Hopefully in this age of "equality" addressing the male / female disparities

A Kurdziel  
#13 Posted : 11 January 2022 11:12:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

There are two parts to this: firstly, how much you may get as compensation before the case goes to court. Insurance companies have their own tariffs for that and then, secondly, there is the guidance  mentioned which is used once the case has gone to court.  That guidance is made up  by someone analysing all of the personal injury cases in the past  few years and producing a set of tariffs based on that. I have heard of it, and it is update every year but retails at something like £2000 a copy!

The judge does not have to follow the guidance, but they are expected to make compensation consistent across  all cases.

One thing that is not made clear in most H&S training  is that there are different types of compensation. The two types of compensation in personal injury cases are: special compensation, which is for actual financial loses eg loss of earnings, cost of medical treatment and rehabilitation etc. So this just covers those costs, while general compensation  looks are things that can’t really be costed: pain and suffering, lost of amenity, mental anguish etc. That is where the guidance comes in. One key thing to understand about the way the civil law works is that the defendant is either is liable, which means they have to pay out the full amount or not liable when they do not pay anything. In civil law there is no degree of liability (unlike criminal law). There is some thing called exemplary compensation which can pay paid depending on how egregious  the defendants actions have been but, in the UK, it is only paid out in exceptional circumstances, usually when the government has messed something up. In the US it is  part and parcel of normal civil action and explains why the amounts of compensation offered can be  so eye wateringly large.

In the UK, there is , contributory negligence but that depends on how much the claimant contributed to their own injury.

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
chris42 on 11/01/2022(UTC)
stevedm  
#14 Posted : 12 January 2022 09:27:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

Chris

This might help...

https://www.bc-legal.co.uk/bcdn/1029-297-the-judicial-college-guidelines-15th-edition-what-has-changed

The Judicial guideline is the reference you need in the UK.

I am just digging out the insurance costs from FM Global..

The average cost of defending a £10k claim is in the region of £50K...

thanks 2 users thanked stevedm for this useful post.
chris42 on 12/01/2022(UTC), RVThompson on 12/01/2022(UTC)
Accidentia  
#15 Posted : 17 January 2022 17:19:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Accidentia

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

There are two parts to this: firstly, how much you may get as compensation before the case goes to court. Insurance companies have their own tariffs for that and then, secondly, there is the guidance  mentioned which is used once the case has gone to court.  That guidance is made up  by someone analysing all of the personal injury cases in the past  few years and producing a set of tariffs based on that. I have heard of it, and it is update every year but retails at something like £2000 a copy!

The judge does not have to follow the guidance, but they are expected to make compensation consistent across  all cases.

One thing that is not made clear in most H&S training  is that there are different types of compensation. The two types of compensation in personal injury cases are: special compensation, which is for actual financial loses eg loss of earnings, cost of medical treatment and rehabilitation etc. So this just covers those costs, while general compensation  looks are things that can’t really be costed: pain and suffering, lost of amenity, mental anguish etc. That is where the guidance comes in. One key thing to understand about the way the civil law works is that the defendant is either is liable, which means they have to pay out the full amount or not liable when they do not pay anything. In civil law there is no degree of liability (unlike criminal law). There is some thing called exemplary compensation which can pay paid depending on how egregious  the defendants actions have been but, in the UK, it is only paid out in exceptional circumstances, usually when the government has messed something up. In the US it is  part and parcel of normal civil action and explains why the amounts of compensation offered can be  so eye wateringly large.

In the UK, there is , contributory negligence but that depends on how much the claimant contributed to their own injury.

The above isn't quite an accurate picture of what happens in civil claims for damages.  I currently work for a firm specialising in pursuing claims on behalf seriously injured claimants and I have been active in this field for many years both on behalf of claimants and defendants (for the avoidance of doubt, we are not a pernicious accident management company).

There are not two separate tariffs here - insurance company and court.  Everyone works to the same system and that is what might be awarded by a court in any specific instance. If the insurance companies paid less in damages than what a claimant might reasonably achieve in court, then far more cases would end up in court than actually do.  The vast majority of personal injury claims are negotiated to settlement well before they end up in court.

General damages for pain, suffering and loss of amenity (both past and future) are assessed by reference to the Judicial Council guidance referred to in earlier posts together with amounts actually awarded in court cases as reported in such journals as Current Law and the All England Reports.  Bailii is also another good source for court awarded damages. No two cases are ever the same so its very often a case of finding the reported cases that are as close as possible to the injuries concerned, where the injuries are perhaps slightly worse or slightly lesser in severity than those being quantified and adjusting the final figure from there.  Don't assume either that in the case of multiple injuries its a case of simply adding the figures for say a broken leg and a broken arm together. In some respects that would amount to a double recovery so the total figure would be reduced accordingly.  There are a couple of instances when this method of determining general damages is not followed:  when a claim is pursued under the Motor Insurers Bureau Untraced Drivers Agreement, for whiplash injuries as mentioned above and where a claim is pursued against the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority.

Special damages basically include quantifiable losses and expenses such as loss of earnings net of tax, prescription and other medical charges, travelling expenses, policy excesses etc.  They not only cover losses and expenses up to settlement or trial, should the need arise, but also future losses and this is where claims often get very expensive.  Claims for future loss can far outweigh whatever is awarded by way of general damages, even where an award under that heading runs well into six figures, especially where future loss of earnings are concerned and more particularly claims for future care.  In the case of lost earnings, if someone is so disabled they will never work again and are at a relatively young age, their projected net annual earnings (the multiplicand) is timesed up using a multiplier to represent the number of years lost, less an allowance to take into account the investment of the lump sum after settlement.  A similar approach applies to care costs.  For a tetraplegic requiring round the clock care, for example, five carers may need to be employed which can come in at around £200,000 per annum.  Add in other medical treatments, alterations to living accommodation to accommodate specialist equipment, a modified vehicle, management fees etc. and the final cost soon escalates into the ten million plus bracket.

Where a claimant has received certain State benefits, these have to be repaid to the Dept. for Work & Pensions by the compensator, usually the defendant, so that the claimant does not recover twice.

Contrary to A Kurdziel's post, contributory negligence is very much a feature of civil damages claims.  If the claimant's own conduct has somehow contributed towards his misfortune, then his or her damages will be reduced in proportion. This is often why cases are contested. If a defendant can reduce a sizeable award by only 10%, that can amount to a very significiant saving in monetary terms.  Unlike in a criminal case where the prosecution only has to prove that a certain driver involved in a road traffic accident breached the standard of an ordinary competent motorist, in a civil case, everything is up for grabs and the matter has to be considered in its entirety and that might include the contribution of other drivers, their employers and the highway authority.

Exemplary damages, however, are an exception to the above as they are intended to punish the defendant for a wrongful act and consequently an award will 'overcompensate' the claimant. Aggravated damages compensate the claimant for injury to feelings when his or her distress was exacerbated by the circumstances in which the injury was caused or by the conduct of the defendant after the wrongful act was committed.  Both types of damages are very rarely awarded in personal injury claims and, as A Kurdziel says, tend to be restricted to where public authorities have significiantly overstepped the mark in some way.

I hope the above helps to explain in a nutshell the situation for England and Wales.  The situation in Scotland is slightly different and I leave those matters to someone more versed in the legalities of compensation north of the border.

thanks 5 users thanked Accidentia for this useful post.
Kate on 17/01/2022(UTC), achrn on 18/01/2022(UTC), CptBeaky on 18/01/2022(UTC), A Kurdziel on 18/01/2022(UTC), peter gotch on 18/01/2022(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#16 Posted : 18 January 2022 11:49:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

What I was trying to get across was that in civil cases there is no level of culpability, unlike criminal law. If a duty of care has been broken, then the claimant is entitled to compensation to cover their loses(including future loses). You don’t get more compensation if the breach was particularly egregious.   On the other hand if there is evidence that the claimant contributed to the breach the court will reduce the amount of compensation by an amount that reflects the contributory negligence.

I know that in theory the amount of compensation that paid out in an out of court settlement should be the same as that paid out if the case had gone to court but based on what  I have seen  the levels of compensation in out of court settlements, often seem to be plucked out of thin air.

stevedm  
#17 Posted : 18 January 2022 12:10:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

what I was going to say was...not sure that you disputed any of AK comments...I have also worked in practice and I didn't have the time back then to put such a lengthy reply :) ...these guys know the process and the ins and outs...but good to have someone else to chip in..   

CptBeaky  
#18 Posted : 18 January 2022 13:22:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Originally Posted by: Accidentia Go to Quoted Post

Lots of great information

I am just about to start my assignment for the next stage of my degree on this topic, and this really helped firm up my understanding.

If I am correct there are a couple of other, less relevant, "damages" that may be considered. Please correct me if I have this wrong.

  • Contemptuous damages are awarded when it is felt the case was wasting the court's time, i.e. it should never have been brought. These tend to be ridiculously low, such as £0.01p
  • Nominal damages are not normally relevant in H&S and are more applicable when an injunction was wanted, as opposed to actual compensation, as there was little actual harm caused. Best example I can think of is somebody parking a car on someone else's drive. No harm was caused and the point of the case was to get them to remove the car.
  • Aggravated damages are for when the defendant has willfully obstructed the process, causing further distress to the claimant, again more usual in defmatio nor trespass cases.

Thanks again everyone for a great topic

CptBeaky  
#19 Posted : 18 January 2022 13:41:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
CptBeaky

Also, as my understanding of it goes. Contributory negligence cases can't be resolved out of court, and the defendant is still liable for 100% of the claimants legal expenses, no matter how much of the claimant contributed to their own injury/ill health. This is why insurance companies rarely go down that road.

Is this also correct?

(And I missed where "aggravated damages were mentioned in with "exemplary damages" - my apologies)

Kate  
#20 Posted : 18 January 2022 15:24:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

If it's settled out of court it can surely be settled however the parties agree to settle it - whatever would prevent that (other than them not agreeing)?  It's surely legitimate to make the point in negotiations "well it was partly your fault and if it went to court you would get less for that reason, so we're going to offer you less as we know we can get away with it".

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 19/01/2022(UTC)
Accidentia  
#21 Posted : 18 January 2022 16:47:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Accidentia

Originally Posted by: CptBeaky Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Accidentia Go to Quoted Post
Lots of great information
I am just about to start my assignment for the next stage of my degree on this topic, and this really helped firm up my understanding.If I am correct there are a couple of other, less relevant, "damages" that may be considered. Please correct me if I have this wrong.
    <li>Contemptuous damages are awarded when it is felt the case was wasting the court's time, i.e. it should never have been brought. These tend to be ridiculously low, such as £0.01p</li><li>Nominal damages are not normally relevant in H&amp;S and are more applicable when an injunction was wanted, as opposed to actual compensation, as there was little actual harm caused. Best example I can think of is somebody parking a car on someone else's drive. No harm was caused and the point of the case was to get them to remove the car.</li><li>Aggravated damages are for when the defendant has willfully obstructed the process, causing further distress to the claimant, again more usual in defmatio nor trespass cases.</li>
Thanks again everyone for a great topic
These types of damages are outside the normal scope of personal injury matters that I deal with but it appears to me you are essentially correct. As to contributory negligence, it can and very frequently is, as Kate indicates, argued in a case well before it gets to court and will often feature prominently in how an award for damages is ultimately arrived at. Once a final figure for both special and general damages has been arrived at, it will then be reduced by whatever amount the claimant's actions are said to have contributed to his/her injuries. The final figure is arrived at by negotiation unless the case gets to trial. In simple terms the defendant may want 75% and the claimant will concede 25% so they end up with a 50% reduction. If the parties cannot agree, the matter goes to trial on liability only with quantum agreed. The amounts of contrib. will reflect previous court decisions in similar cases. By way of example, non-wearing of a seat belt will usually attract a 15-25% reduction but this is guide only and depending upon the actual circumstances could be more or less, or possibly none at all.
thanks 1 user thanked Accidentia for this useful post.
CptBeaky on 19/01/2022(UTC)
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