Hi, would someone be able to shed some light on this please?

Following a survey on fire doors across one of our buildings, out of 75 doors, 49 doors came back with this comment: "Amber doors: Door is non-compliant and can be repaired. Door has no current Fire Door certification and will remain un-certified but complaint following completion of the works."  The building was handed over to us in 2002. Our Facilties Team are desperately looking for the Fire Door Certificates for all 49 doors (contacting previous owner etc) as they believe they have to replace all doors that don't have a fire certificate even if the can be repaired and become compliant. Is this correct??  Seems like if they can be repaired** and are then compliant, then they shouldn't need to be replaced?

Would be great to hear from anyone who has had a similar issue or has knowledge of fire doors.

Thanks very much.

Edited by user 04 February 2022 15:27:18(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Thank you Kate, that's how I read it and questioned Facilities - who's telling you that you need to replace fire doors that don't have certificates? The report was a Fire & Security company. So, I'm questioning whether there is a ligit legal reqiurement to comply with a BS for fire doors to have fire certificates or if my facilities team are being taken advantage of?

Re: the 26 remaining doors - 12 were classed as "RED: Door is non-compliant and un-repairable, required replacement. New Fire Door certificate to be issued", 12 were classed as GREEN: "Door is non-compliant and can be repaired. Door has current Fire Door certification", and 2 were "Door is compliant and requires no action"

Slightly confused about the need for a cert. Do the doors have a coloured plug on the hinge edge of the door (or if newer a label on the top of the door), or even are these doors so old they predate the plastic plug era ?

Also curious about the repairs, has someone in the past put none fire rated furniture on the door (handles etc) or has an intumescent strip “gone missing” or what.

Lastly are you sure all the doors are intended to be fire doors?

I ask this as we have some older very sturdy fire doors that have no label or coloured plug, but no one has any problem with them (so not certificated)

Sounds like your assessor is being reasonable

I don't understand this: "New Fire Door certificate to be issued"

Who is expected to "issue" this?

What do the certificates of the certificated fire doors look like?  Do they refer to the individual door or are they the specification for the particular make and model of door?

I always look for the brass plate/label on top edge of the door. If it has been correctly hung it will be there, otherwise it may not be a Fire Door.  Use a small mirror to look for the plate, using your hand may lead to splinters.

If correctly installed it will have the correct hinges and handles, if it looks dodgy get it checked out by a certified Fire Door installer. They know what to look for.

Originally Posted by: Kate

Sounds like a facilities team that are given to unnecessary panic!

As a client of a professional fire risk assessment, I wasn't asked for certificates for the fire doors.  The fire risk assessor seemed perfectly happy to examine the doors and say if they were compliant or not.

It doesn't sound as if this fire risk assessor has demanded certificates either, let alone recommended replacement of compliant doors. In fact they have recommended repair of the non-compliant doors.  Why would they recommend that if they had any expectation of the doors being removed and replaced?

If the fire risk assessor doesn't recommend this drastic step, I wouldn't expect it to be even considered.

Sometimes people do just over-react to something trivial.

But why are they only looking for certs for the 49 doors that are non-compliant and need repair?  Why not for the other 26 doors which are compliant and don't need repair but presumably also don't have certificates?

Spot on Kate In a H&S world where paperwork seem to be the priority in many people's minds, this is the sort of dead-end place it takes you. In 15 years of carrying out FRAs, I have only asked if there was certification available on (as far as I can recall) 2 premises. One was a 1920s premises, refurbished in the 1990s where fire doors onto the staircases used what appeared to be non standard/compliant glass with copper flashing. Even when I saw the certificate, it proved nothing as I didnt believe it so rejected it.

I have been supplied with certification for new or refurbished doors without asking for it. Closer inspection of the doorssometimes showed the door and frame were as detailed in the certificate, but the bloody big gap between the frame and the wall, hidden by architrave, will never achieve 10 mins, let alone 30 mins - meaning the certificate is worthless in a pragmatic sense.

The FRA in the OP's example listed those that will need repairs in order for them to be compliant (I am not sure if that means legally compliant or compliant with BS476). Why isnt that sufficient? I always check every fire door that I can access. I dont always check locked doors (cupboards) where locating a key might be problematic, but will if it contains an electrical, gas, fuel, data or ventilation riser or is on the only staircase for that premises

Doors to high risk areas, doors to stairs and doors in a compartment line (for example where progressive horizontal or phased evacuation is part of the strategy) are always checked and where I feel it is necessary, a sample invasive survey is carried out by removal of architraves and false flooring and ceiling tiles.

The bottom line is, a visual or invasive inspection by a competent person is 1000 times more relaiable than a piece of paper and in the OP's example, I would be minded to get the repairs done and not lose any sleep over the certificates 

Highly likely when they devise the product safety standards under the Building Safety Regulation it will become BS EN 1634-1 testing rather than BS 476-22 to keep it in line with changes already made in other legslation.

Of course for already installed door sets you don't really know even looking at a certificate - from July 2018:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/action-to-address-recent-fire-door-issues

Originally Posted by: Kate

Firesafety, have you ever seen or heard of certificates being issued for fire doors?

Yes Kate.  Whenever I do the H&S File and if fire doors have been installed I believe there should be proof that the doors are FD and that proof provided to the Client.

I ask the contractor for the contact details of the FD manufacturer and/or supplier and ask for copy of the cert.  Always been provided.

Also issues with the services conduit sitting directly below the floor at the door threshold