Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Clive.Davison  
#1 Posted : 20 April 2022 09:51:40(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Clive.Davison

In the military there is a requirement for them to maintain personal fitness to meet certain fitness criteria. If a gym is provided by a civilian service provider to enable them to use the equipment free of charge would this fall under the requirements of PUWER as effectively this would be work equipment? There is also an arguement that this could also come under LOLER for items such as multigyms where cables provide a viable link to the weight system. I have no doubt this has been asked previously but any thoughts?

Brian Hagyard  
#2 Posted : 20 April 2022 10:05:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Brian Hagyard

PUWER and LOLER only apply to employees - im not sure at the point of use if the individuals would be classed as employees or members of teh public - but either way the general duties of HASAW would apply so i would be using the Maintance requirements etc of PUWER, and the inspection of the lifting accessories in LOLER to evidance i had done everything "reasonably pratcicable" to protect the safety of people not in my employ.

I assume that as its a civilian service provider normal H&S applies - i know the military have some exemptions

thanks 1 user thanked Brian Hagyard for this useful post.
Clive.Davison on 22/04/2022(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 20 April 2022 10:15:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Going with Brian on this one.

Your scenario describes private provision by others who are not the users direct employer.

The provider is effectivley inviting members of the public to use equipment they are responsible for.

They would be responsible for the upkeep of the facilities together with any equipment and should have suitable Public Liability cover.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Clive.Davison on 22/04/2022(UTC), Clive.Davison on 22/04/2022(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 20 April 2022 10:15:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Going with Brian on this one.

Your scenario describes private provision by others who are not the users direct employer.

The provider is effectivley inviting members of the public to use equipment they are responsible for.

They would be responsible for the upkeep of the facilities together with any equipment and should have suitable Public Liability cover.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Clive.Davison on 22/04/2022(UTC), Clive.Davison on 22/04/2022(UTC)
Xavier123  
#5 Posted : 20 April 2022 10:37:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

Ain't no gym I know applying LOLER to multigyms...

It's not likely to be considered as lifting equipment under the Regs. But otherwise agree that should consider the elements of PUWER and work on that basis.

Once the employer decides to provide a piece of equipment in the workplace (whether by choice or obligation) they will have to consider their responsibilities for looking after it.

thanks 1 user thanked Xavier123 for this useful post.
Clive.Davison on 22/04/2022(UTC)
Clive.Davison  
#6 Posted : 22 April 2022 15:20:15(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Clive.Davison

Thanks peeps. My thinking is that, as the gym operator is a seperate entity to the building owner/manager I am working on the assumption that they should be maintaining the equipment anyway and have advised them that they should contact their own insurers to seek clarification around the yes/no PUWER inspection issue.

peter gotch  
#7 Posted : 23 April 2022 12:56:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Clive.

The UK military have very few exemptions or exceptions to UK health and safety law other than that the Crown is immune from prosecution, instead facing the prospect of a slap on the wrist from the regulator or e.g. a "Crown Prohibition or Improvement Notice" where the regulator is HSE.

So, in practice that the users of this gym work for the military makes little difference.

I am guessing that the user's employer has a contract with the gym company to make its facilities available to the users (for free).

So, then there might be some duty of care on the employer to exercise some oversight of health and safety standards relevant to whatever contract is awarded. No real difference from their buying ANYTHING else for their staff.

As example, if the MOD were buying in chicken sarnies in quantities for their staff, and the supplier's food hygiene was seriously remiss, when a military worker ended up with food poisoning due to salmonella there is a very good chance that they would sue their employer (with deep pockets) as well as the supplier (whose pockets might have holes in them).

So, perhaps you should be asking the procurement people what standards are specified in contract.

Mark-W  
#8 Posted : 25 April 2022 14:59:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mark-W

Trouble is military gyms are unlike civvy gyms. They are behind the wire and not open to the general public.

The exception here is that family can use the gym but go through an induction process and no membership fees, also civil servants who work on camp can use it as well but not their family.

Pirellipete  
#9 Posted : 25 April 2022 15:18:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Pirellipete

It's not work equipment though is it ?

and lets face it, the military don't do PUWER inspections on their rifles and cannons which ARE actually their work equipment

Surely Maintenance in accordance with the Manufacturers Instructions Manual is adequate, and Use in accordance with the Manufacturers Instructions manual would be the same

and most gyms now give you a one to one induction on how to use the equipment before they let you loose on it, which you sign for having received.

Edited by user 25 April 2022 15:20:27(UTC)  | Reason: typo change

thanks 1 user thanked Pirellipete for this useful post.
Kate on 25/04/2022(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#10 Posted : 25 April 2022 15:49:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: Mark-W Go to Quoted Post
They are behind the wire and not open to the general public.

Interesting - the location was not mentioned by the OP

Roundtuit  
#11 Posted : 25 April 2022 15:49:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: Mark-W Go to Quoted Post
They are behind the wire and not open to the general public.

Interesting - the location was not mentioned by the OP

Jane Tomlinson  
#12 Posted : 25 April 2022 20:20:33(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Jane Tomlinson

The Regulations, often abbreviated to PUWER, place duties on people and companies who own, operate or have control over work equipment. PUWER also places responsibilities on businesses and organisations whose employees use work equipment, whether owned by them or not.

PUWER requires that equipment provided for use at work is:

  • suitable for the intended use
  • safe for use, maintained in a safe condition and inspected to ensure it is correctly installed and does not subsequently deteriorate
  • used only by people who have received adequate information, instruction and training
  • accompanied by suitable health and safety measures, such as protective devices and controls. These will normally include guarding, emergency stop devices, adequate means of isolation from sources of energy, clearly visible markings and warning devices
  • used in accordance with specific requirements, for mobile work equipment and power presses
Jane Tomlinson  
#13 Posted : 25 April 2022 20:26:40(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Jane Tomlinson

You can also equipments provided by: https://labslondon.com/

Mark-W  
#14 Posted : 28 April 2022 14:25:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mark-W

Originally Posted by: Pirellipete Go to Quoted Post

It's not work equipment though is it ?

and lets face it, the military don't do PUWER inspections on their rifles and cannons which ARE actually their work equipment

Surely Maintenance in accordance with the Manufacturers Instructions Manual is adequate, and Use in accordance with the Manufacturers Instructions manual would be the same

and most gyms now give you a one to one induction on how to use the equipment before they let you loose on it, which you sign for having received.

You'd be surprised at what the MOD does for inspections.   For rifles, every time it comes out of the armoury it is stripped for cleaning at some point. User checks are then performed and reports filed. They are cleaned before leave periods wether they have been fired or not. Or if the management are bored and lazy it's a Friday afternoon activity before knock off. Those who are ex mil on here will agree.

With regards to tanks and other vehicles, they will have a monthly MOT, or a military equivalent which is a CFT. (combat fitness test). This is performed by the crew. All mortars have a logbook which accounts for their use. You have to record every round that gets fired from it.

thanks 1 user thanked Mark-W for this useful post.
andrewhopwood on 11/05/2022(UTC)
Accidentia  
#15 Posted : 04 May 2022 19:44:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Accidentia

It might be useful here to quote verbatim the workplace duties imposed upon the MOD as set out by the Court of Appeal in Smith v MOD & Others [2012] EWCA Civ 1365:

  1. It is beyond dispute, and the MOD did not purport to dispute, that it owed a duty of care at common law to members of the armed forces as their employer. Nor was it disputed that health and safety provisions contained in Sections 2-4 and 6-7 of the Health and Safety Act 1974 and in Regulations made under Section 15 imposed statutory duties on the MOD. For example, it is required to secure suitable personal protective clothing and adequate information, instruction and training about such equipment under the Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations 1992, to construct or adapt work equipment so that it is fit for purpose under the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998, to make a suitable and sufficient assessment of risks to health and safety, and to secure adequate health and safety training on recruitment, or when exposed to new or increased risks, under the Management of Health and Safety Regulations 1999. The territorial scope of those Regulations is limited to Great Britain (Section 84(1), extended to Northern Ireland by Order in Council under Section 84(3) of the 1974 Act).
  2. The employer's duty of care, at common law and statutory duties imposed under Regulation, have been deployed against the MOD in numerous previous cases: in Chalk [2002] EWHC 422 (QB) (injury caused by avalanche to member of a RAF rescue team on training exercise), Fawdry [2003] EWHC 322 (QB) (ill-fitting helmet causing injury on exercise to trainee at Sandhurst), Hanks [2005] EWHC (injury to neck caused by breach of the 1992 Regulations during naval flight training exercise), Hopps [2009] EWHC 1881 (QB)(electrical engineer, working under the protection of the MOD in Iraq, injured by IED due to failure to provide suitable armoured vehicle). Most of these cases failed on their facts, but their significance lies in the MOD's acceptance of the duties alleged.

It is clear, therefore, that PUWER applies to the MOD both on and off MOD premises. According to paragraph 17 of the ACoP the definition of work equipment "is extremely wide..." and covers almost all equipment used at work and is therefore likely to encompass gym equipment.  Further, an employee is at work "throughout the time when he is in the course of his employment..."(para 23)  So it follows that if MOD personel are directed to the gym to maintain their fitness levels during working hours they are at work. If, on the other hand, they do so in their own personal time, they will not be at work and PUWER will not apply.  Further, PUWER applies to people who have control of work equipment (para 25) in this case the gym operator as well as the MOD. Their duties cover both their own employees and other workers who may be affected i.e. the forces personel using the gym.  There should be co-operation and co-ordination of activities to meet duties under PUWER where multiple employers and employees work (para 29). In addition, on multi-occupancy sites where several duty holders share equipment there should be agreement amonst the parties regarding compliance with PUWER (para 32). Consequently, in this instance, I would expect to find clauses in the contract between MOD and the gym operator about responsibilities under PUWER because although the gym may be operated by a contractor, the building and equipment inside may be owned by either party.

For completeness, I would add that reg. 36 of PUWER grants the Secretary of State power to exempt the armed forces from PUWER "by certificate in writing..." although I doubt such an exemption will be in force.

andrewhopwood  
#16 Posted : 11 May 2022 15:44:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
andrewhopwood

Originally Posted by: Mark-W Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Pirellipete Go to Quoted Post

It's not work equipment though is it ?

and lets face it, the military don't do PUWER inspections on their rifles and cannons which ARE actually their work equipment

Surely Maintenance in accordance with the Manufacturers Instructions Manual is adequate, and Use in accordance with the Manufacturers Instructions manual would be the same

and most gyms now give you a one to one induction on how to use the equipment before they let you loose on it, which you sign for having received.

You'd be surprised at what the MOD does for inspections.   For rifles, every time it comes out of the armoury it is stripped for cleaning at some point. User checks are then performed and reports filed. They are cleaned before leave periods wether they have been fired or not. Or if the management are bored and lazy it's a Friday afternoon activity before knock off. Those who are ex mil on here will agree.

With regards to tanks and other vehicles, they will have a monthly MOT, or a military equivalent which is a CFT. (combat fitness test). This is performed by the crew. All mortars have a logbook which accounts for their use. You have to record every round that gets fired from it.

Originally Posted by: Jane Tomlinson Go to Quoted Post

The Regulations, often abbreviated to PUWER, place duties on people and companies who own, operate or have control over work equipment. PUWER also places responsibilities on businesses and organisations whose employees use work equipment, whether owned by them or not.

PUWER requires that equipment provided for use at work is:

  • suitable for the intended use
  • safe for use, maintained in a safe condition and inspected to ensure it is correctly installed and does not subsequently deteriorate
  • used only by people who have received adequate information, instruction and training
  • accompanied by suitable health and safety measures, such as protective devices and controls. These will normally include guarding, emergency stop devices, adequate means of isolation from sources of energy, clearly visible markings and warning devices
  • used in accordance with specific requirements, for mobile work equipment and power presses

Thank you Mark, i was looking for that reply, if you have a tool your life may depend on you will make sure its working very well, PUWER 98 will probably be sub standard in comparison. 

The military are very good at holding their hands up when things go wrong, i am aware of three Crown Censures recently, two of which involved divers. 

Regulars will know of some of my problems and some of those come from expecting precision and compliance, i would love them to have 50% of the military compliance. 

stevedm  
#17 Posted : 11 May 2022 17:46:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

accendia...don't...the reference to Iraq and PUWER is a red herring...read the question...

the equipment isn't being provided for work purposes - the guys are required to keep fit...they could run on the road. Not PUWER...the civilian provider is merely ensuring that the equipment is provided, purchased and maintained in line with the manufacturers instructions and that falls to the product safety regulations 2005...which only requires them to be safe in their normal or foreseeable usage...

Accidentia  
#18 Posted : 13 May 2022 14:17:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Accidentia

Originally Posted by: stevedm Go to Quoted Post

accendia...don't...the reference to Iraq and PUWER is a red herring...read the question...

the equipment isn't being provided for work purposes - the guys are required to keep fit...they could run on the road. Not PUWER...the civilian provider is merely ensuring that the equipment is provided, purchased and maintained in line with the manufacturers instructions and that falls to the product safety regulations 2005...which only requires them to be safe in their normal or foreseeable usage...

Admittedly, it is not clear from the original post whether the squaddies are using the equipment in their own time or that of their employer.  However, it is stated that the gym equipment is used free of charge. Because any commercial gym is unlikely to allow the use of gym equipment without payment of a fee, it is reasonable to infer that some form of contract exists between the MOD and gym operator.  With a certain personal fintess level needing to be maintained as part of the job requirement, it is more likely than not that personnel will be expected to avail themselves of the free gym sessions in working time, the same as personnel run on the road in work time for fitness reasons.

As I stated previously, if the personnel visit in their own time gym equipment will not be classed as work equipment. That said, if the gym instructors use the equipment for demonstration purposes, it will be classed as work equipment and need to be complaint with PUWER accordingly.

Roundtuit  
#19 Posted : 13 May 2022 14:52:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: Jane Tomlinson Go to Quoted Post
You can also equipments provided by

NOW reported

Roundtuit  
#20 Posted : 13 May 2022 14:52:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: Jane Tomlinson Go to Quoted Post
You can also equipments provided by

NOW reported

Users browsing this topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.