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leewestmids  
#1 Posted : 19 May 2022 09:49:24(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
leewestmids

Hi All hope everyone is well !

We have a contractor conducting mezzanine extention work out of hours over a few weekends (No staff on site). I understand i require an updated fire risk assesment to cover the move of a staircase, new instalations of smoke detectors ect.

Other than fire, could anyone provide some guidance on what else i should include along with the below.

  • Transportation of products throught the building
  • Fall from heights 
  • Slips & trips 
  • Contraxctor competancy 
  • Plant equipment
  • PPE 
  • First aid provisions 

First experience in dealing with mezzanine extensions.

Thanks Lee. 

peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 19 May 2022 10:19:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Morning Lee

I have NEVER had to deal with a mezzanine extension!!

However, most of what you are asking should have been considered by the procurement and design team(s) to meet requirements of the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2015.

NOTE! - I have assumed that this project is probably NOT notifiable.

But just because it's not notifiable doesn't mean that nothing else in CDM applies.

It's extremely unlikely that this project could be done by a single contractor even if only because the main contractor doing the structural erection is unlikely to be competent for the M&E works (new hard wired smoke detectors etc).

So, with or without CDM, a client duty to select a suitable contractor - preferably without excessive bureaucracy. I would defer to the guidance in the Approved Code of Practice L144 that supported CDM 2007, rather than what it says in L153 which is not particularly helpful in terms of practical steps. You should be  able to download L144 from the HSENI website.

On the assumption thata there will be more than one contractor, client appointment of a Principal Designer (could possibly be your organisation as Client) and Principal Contractor.

Pre Construction Information to be provided to contractor or tenderers.

Then a Construction Phase Plan (prepared by the Principal Contractor), which you as client should be checking before construction work starts.

AND perhaps just as important as anything else a Health and Safety File (or an amendment to existing HSF for the site) to inform about H&S issues for future "construction work"

+ outside CDM (to an extent) but possibly cross-referenced to the HSF, the all important Operations and Maintenance (O&M) Manuals.

Various of the above help to inform your updated fire risk assessment.

Good luck, Peter

thanks 2 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
HSSnail on 19/05/2022(UTC), Ellis on 06/06/2022(UTC)
HSSnail  
#3 Posted : 19 May 2022 11:59:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

As Peter says shouldbe covered at design stage

Seen some very dodgy Messanines over the years! What about the safe working load? This can be a big variation depending on construction. 

You mention falls from height - again a major flaw in many designs - how are you getting stock up there? If Using a FLT or similar how do you protect the opening - i like the up and over gates as the gap is always covered (if used correctly)

achrn  
#4 Posted : 19 May 2022 12:27:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

So, with or without CDM, a client duty to select a suitable contractor - preferably without excessive bureaucracy. I would defer to the guidance in the Approved Code of Practice L144 that supported CDM 2007, rather than what it says in L153 which is not particularly helpful in terms of practical steps. You should be  able to download L144 from the HSENI website.

I note that's a withdrawn ACOP to a repealed piece of legislation. I agree there are elements of good practice within the guidance, for someone that doesn't already know the detail, I'm not sure how they'd pick out what is still good practice and what is now no longer applicable.

For the OP, and elaborating on what Peter has said: L144 included the ACOP to the previous version of CDM regs, but the latest version of CDM regs has significant changes, so while it can give you a structure to a competence assessment process, you will need to check that what you read in it aligns with the current regs.

Complementing L153 is the CITB guidance: https://www.citb.co.uk/a...5/cdm-regulations/  This isn't a HSE publication, but it is endorsed by HSE - it has their logo on the cover.  Unfortunately, it doesn't say much about competence, only that the client needs to appoint competent suppliers (though it avoids using the C-word - that was definitely an obscenity when CDM2015 was being prepared) and a reference to PAS91 and SSIP.

leewestmids  
#5 Posted : 19 May 2022 14:07:54(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
leewestmids

Excellent advice guys ! thanks for your kind input.

I’m responsible for H&S on site but find it frustrating as i find out design plans late in the day or even without consultation at times. (Very reactive business with not much proactive planning in H&S terms)  Lucky today i at least have the planned drawing and what i need to do in preparation for fire hazards at least with separate contractors, gives me two weeks to make arrangements. 

I will check with the contractor of the mezz build for their risk assessment/method statement but i have taken some valuable information in how this should be conducted at the design stage.

I did in fact learn some key aspects of the CDM regulations on the health and safety file today (Appendix 4) & (Appendix 5)

That’s what i love about this forum, great information from experts !

Lee (tech IOSH)

peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 19 May 2022 14:17:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Lee - as achrn says the decision was made with CDM 2015 to avoid the "C" word.

CDM 1994 was followed by enormous bureaucracy. I remember one major client whose individual project managers each thought they knew best so every prequalfication questionnaire that came from the client had some new variant - it was enormously frustrating.

So, L144 supporting CDM 2007 tried to influence clients (and their advisers) into a more pragmatic approach to assessing competence at both organisational and individual levels.

CDM 2015 instead demands "skills, knowledge and experience" for organisation and individual. Now in my simplistic book SKE = C.

Which is why we continued to apply exactly the same process under CDM 2015 to assessing SKE as we had before to the assessment of C.

L153 has been described as "lite" - political pressure to make compliance look as easy as possible, with the result being that the guidance is far less helpful than that in L144.

Ironically, I attended a webinar yesterday where the speaker advocated not the two Stage Competence assessment recommended by L144, but a three Stage process, where the third stage involves checking the HSE prosecutions database - which in my view is next to useless in terms of illustrating competence or lack of competence!!

I could write many words to explain why the HSE prosecutions database is not helpful in this.

Edited by user 19 May 2022 14:18:25(UTC)  | Reason: A former HSE Inspector should be able to type PROSECUTION without a typo

HSSnail  
#7 Posted : 19 May 2022 14:29:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Edited by user 19 May 2022 14:18:25  | Reason: A former HSE Inspector should be able to type PROSECUTION without a typo

I better get my coat then Peter! I can mistype anything and frequently do - just seen today that the Edit feature has a spell check - so why not the main body of our replys?

thanks 1 user thanked HSSnail for this useful post.
peter gotch on 19/05/2022(UTC)
peter gotch  
#8 Posted : 19 May 2022 16:05:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Brian - just one aspect of the Forums that could easily be improved!

It doesn't bother me when other people put in typos, but my English master at school was a stickler.

firesafety101  
#9 Posted : 26 May 2022 09:49:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I though we was her to discuss H&S matters and not to be scaulded when we make errors in out typing.

firesafety101  
#10 Posted : 26 May 2022 09:56:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I was once visiting a site where a new mezzanine was being installed.  It was almost completed and at the stage when electrics were being Final Fixed.  There were a few holes in the floor where panels had been removed and nothing to prevent falls into the holes.

I was standing on the mezzanine discussing this with the Contracts Manager and asking him about his fall prevention methods and emergency lighting when the lights went out.  It was as black as black can be and I became scared to move because of all the holes.

Once the lights came back on I was relieved and the Contracts Manager had received a valuable example first hand of what I was talking about.

peter gotch  
#11 Posted : 26 May 2022 10:03:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Morning firesafety101

As far as I can see there has only been one person on this thread scolding typos - me scolding myself!

....and even then only in the reason which I gave for editing a response in the text box for such an edit.

P

firesafety101  
#12 Posted : 26 May 2022 10:10:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Sorry I was going to add Fall Prevention and Emergency Lighting during theworks are essential.

firesafety101  
#13 Posted : 26 May 2022 10:19:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Originally Posted by: peter gotch Go to Quoted Post

Morning firesafety101

As far as I can see there has only been one person on this thread scolding typos - me scolding myself!

....and even then only in the reason which I gave for editing a response in the text box for such an edit.

P

Morning Peter, my reply was as you would have guessed tongue in cheek making light of the situation.

My point about errors made in writing is I am Dyslexic and I am sure other contributors are as well.  I have to firstly write my post then secondly read through slowly and then a second time before hitting the post button.  Then I have issues with the requirement to provide exact copy of the security image, lord knows how many times I get that wrong, then try to post a second time only to be told I cannot post for X amount of time.

So frustrating for me and no doubt for others as well.

Having just corrected this writing you would have either been appauled at what I wrote or had a great laugh.  

Eric Morcombe once said "all the right notes but not in the right order". ha ha.

thanks 1 user thanked firesafety101 for this useful post.
peter gotch on 26/05/2022(UTC)
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