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Herb  
#1 Posted : 23 March 2023 21:15:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Herb

We have a really bad smell in one of our rooms at work. The room has now been closed/locked up, so noone has access to it. The smell is like a whire spirit/ paint smell and is really strong. After investigating it further, opening windows etec etc and checking with cleaners and site team, there is no reason why this smell is present. I assume that the next step would be to check with London Fire Brigade as they have a team that come out and investigate further. Just interested if any colleagues on here have come across a similar incident.

John D C  
#2 Posted : 23 March 2023 21:39:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John D C

Think people will require some more detail. What is the room used for. Any thing been changed in the room particularly just before the smell was noticed. What was the room used for previously.
Herb  
#3 Posted : 23 March 2023 22:18:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Herb

The room is used everyday by staff and no changes prior to the smell. It's not located near any cleaning cupboards or site stroage facilities. Site team have not used any new chemicals.

Messey  
#4 Posted : 23 March 2023 22:52:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Messey

Be very careful about inviting the LFB's 'Detection Identification and Monitoring' team in to your business in these circumstances.

Firstly they are an emergency service meant to to be used for imminent risk of fire, explosion or health issues to those in the premises. You situation seems to have been going on for many hours, certainly days by the time to call the LFB. To be fair, they almost certainly will respond, but the DIM Team rarely turn out alone in their specialised vehicle. If the LFB determine this to be a hazmat incident, there will be multiple appliances and crews despatched and most likely an evacuation (or part evacuatio) established. This is course isnt great for business continuity, especially if your business is closed for many hours Also, the LFB may charge for a hazmat incident where life is not threatened. I cannot find up to date figures for the LFB, but it will be circa £400 per hour (or part of) per appliance. The attendance to a hazmat incident may attract between three and five appliances at a minimum. You might want to speak to the 'Officer of the Watch' if you dial 999, or better still, phone their HQ and ask for advice ​​​​​​​Good luck 

chris42  
#5 Posted : 24 March 2023 08:58:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

You didn’t actually say what processes normally takes place in the room or is it a canteen or locker room.  After you changed the air in the room and then locked it, has someone gone back in to see if the smell has returned?  Are there vents to the outside ( or feeding from somewhere else) or are the windows normally open? Are there any processes outside / next door that could account for the smell ? is it something as simple as there is a vap area outside and someone has found an odd flavour / smelling one.

I think unfortunately a lot more questions, before any real view can be formed.

firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 24 March 2023 12:45:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I was about to suggest checking outside but Chris42 beat me to it.

Then going to suggest calling LFB but not 999.  if you locate the nearest fire station and call them I'm sure someone will call out and investigate, possibly with an explosimeter and/or one of their marvellous dogs.

I was once called out to a smell of petrol in a terraced house.  Long story short it was dripping into the cellar of a house a few doors away from a petrol station.  On investigation we found the petrol station was losing petrol, not reporting it, just amending their records disguising it.  Ended with the petrol station closed down while the leaking underground tank was dug out and replaced.

The reason petrol was dripping into the cellar is lots of heavy rain raising the water table.

A Kurdziel  
#7 Posted : 24 March 2023 15:02:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I hate investigating mystery smells!

So,  the room in question what is it used for? “The room is used everyday by staff”- for what? Is it an office, workshop or mess room? What do you have on site that might have caused this smell? Are there any chemicals  that are stored near the room?  Does the room have any sort of forced ventilation?  Where does the air come from?  I once investigated a smell which was from muck being spread on a farmer’s field nearly a mile away. The air conditioning system seemed to suck it all into the building and almost concentrated it.

Has something changed on site: New cleaning products being used?

You say bit smells like some sort of solvent? Has anybody been putting down  carpet tiles or solvent welding pipework?

Smells can travel  all over a building so cast your eye ( or nose) widely.

 

firesafety101  
#8 Posted : 25 March 2023 14:07:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

A good Chemist can find out what the smell is and provide annother chemical to Mask the smell.

A Kurdziel  
#9 Posted : 27 March 2023 09:47:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Most chemists I know of lost their sense of smell years ago!  I identifying a particular is quite difficult without a clue as to what it might be.

thanks 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 27/03/2023(UTC), HSSnail on 28/03/2023(UTC)
grim72  
#10 Posted : 27 March 2023 13:04:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

Only other possible source I can think of that hasn't already been mentioned is the drains? Potentially there is a blockage and someone (elsewhere) has been trying to unlcog it with various chemicals and the build up is now collating under your room? Just a thought - may be way off.

A Kurdziel  
#11 Posted : 27 March 2023 13:48:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I have spent most of today trying to work out  how a smell  managed to apparently move from one building to another. It’s still not clear what happened and why. It is also not clear whether this a minor issue or indicating a more serious matter… as I said- I hate investigating mystery smells!

HSSnail  
#12 Posted : 28 March 2023 10:02:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Originally Posted by: A Kurdziel Go to Quoted Post

Most chemists I know of lost their sense of smell years ago!  I identifying a particular is quite difficult without a clue as to what it might be.

Totaly agree - many years ago worked for an environmental health team. Complanants that started "I want it testing" used to make our bllod run cold, be it a smell, food water etc. "what do you want it testing for" was always the response. Far two many people think you can just run a test that will tell you everything, (i blame the tv), in reality you have to have some idea what you are looking for.

firesafety101  
#13 Posted : 28 March 2023 10:39:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Originally Posted by: Messey Go to Quoted Post

Be very careful about inviting the LFB's 'Detection Identification and Monitoring' team in to your business in these circumstances.

Firstly they are an emergency service meant to to be used for imminent risk of fire, explosion or health issues to those in the premises. You situation seems to have been going on for many hours, certainly days by the time to call the LFB. To be fair, they almost certainly will respond, but the DIM Team rarely turn out alone in their specialised vehicle. If the LFB determine this to be a hazmat incident, there will be multiple appliances and crews despatched and most likely an evacuation (or part evacuatio) established. This is course isnt great for business continuity, especially if your business is closed for many hours Also, the LFB may charge for a hazmat incident where life is not threatened. I cannot find up to date figures for the LFB, but it will be circa £400 per hour (or part of) per appliance. The attendance to a hazmat incident may attract between three and five appliances at a minimum. You might want to speak to the 'Officer of the Watch' if you dial 999, or better still, phone their HQ and ask for advice ​​​​​​​Good luck 

Hi Messey, long time no talk ha ha.  So you suggest not calling out the DIM because there would possibly be payment.  Apart from this forum which is free but has us all scratching our heads because we don't have enough information how will Herb finally crack the case.  If they call out a chemical company to investigate they will no doubt charge and have a solution that may also be charged.

I would always rely on the FRS to do the job without further expectation of charges and, you never know, this might be a Hazardous Substance on the loose.

Your advice to call in the first instance is good and their local fire station may be the first call.

Messey  
#14 Posted : 28 March 2023 13:12:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Messey

Hiya FS101 - How are you doing? No, my main reason for not calling the fire service is that the DIM crews are really trained and equipped for emergencies and not 'estate' type investigations in the same way a fire service hydraulic platform will turn out to a dangerous estate agent sign, but wouldnt for a planned/routine removal of one. The mention of a possible fee was just to highlight this potential   As you say, a quick call to LFB HQ may yield more relaible information. For example, if there is no big rush, the DIM crews may wish to use the opportunity as a training session in a real world environment - in that case, everyone is a winner

thanks 1 user thanked Messey for this useful post.
firesafety101 on 05/04/2023(UTC)
Herb  
#15 Posted : 04 April 2023 09:46:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Herb

The smell would found to be polish that was not authorised to be used. LFB did come out and premises evacuated and smell now dispersed. Some employees has completely accident forms to say that they experenced headaches but all fit and well now. My question is, do you think this is RIDDOR reportable as technically it doesn't seem to fit the criteria under RIDDOR regs?

peter gotch  
#16 Posted : 04 April 2023 09:52:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Morning Herb

Let's turn the question on its head!

On what possible grounds would you think this to be RIDDOR reportable (or even recordable)?

A Kurdziel  
#17 Posted : 04 April 2023 13:15:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Let’s be more categorical: NO, its not a RIDDOR!

Why was the polish “unauthorised”. Products are normally designed to be used in a particular location and you wouild think that a floor polish is designed to be applied to floors. They all have some sort of solvent, which evaporates leaving behind the shiny bit.

 

This could be an example of “Royal Free Disease”: essentially  back in the day(1950’s) they ended up  having to close down part of the named hospital because staff kept falling ill there. There was no obvious cause as such but once people become convinced that there was something “wrong”  they began developing symptoms.

I had a similar experience a few years back: we had an office where the staff all agreed that ozone from a photo copier was causing people to have headaches etc. We installed testing equipment and replaced the photocopier with different model  but nothing changed, even though we did not detect any significant ozone levels. We then made some enquiries about the office and discovered that the person in charge of that office was a bully and a generally obnoxious human being.  Being unwell validated people’s stress and anxiety.

 

Messey  
#18 Posted : 05 April 2023 00:09:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Messey

Some time ago I was called by the security team in our head office to assist in identifying a offensive and disgusting smell in a large open plan office.

I wasnt that concerned as on he 8th floor, it was unlikely to be a repeat of a sewage incident in the basement the previous winter, how upon arrival I was surprised to find a really noxious smell. 80 staff were outside in the corridor and making there way to the staff restaurant and it was my call whether to make this a 999 hazmat incident.

I heard that the smell had been there all day. Nobody was reporting feeling unwell, just uncomfortable. It was 11.30 am. I was completely at a loss so decided to carry out a detailed search of all unlocked spaces in the room with the security team. My DRA determined that 4 hours after noticing the smell, no staff were ill, so that gave us a few minutes to search before possibly escalating the issue In a small storeroom, it was clear that the smell was worse. There were a range of personal lockers inside the space and we opened some with a master key as part of the search. It was then that I found the issue. I nearly vomitted

I wasnt sure what the hell I had found, but it was awful. We traced the staff member whose locker it was, He was on another site for the day but had been in work earlier. It turns out this guy had been abroad and bought back some durian fruit - which is well known for its offensive smell, best described as BO & petrol Now identified, what the hell do we do with it? Our loading bay is completely internal and we have no open air space whatsover. So I resealed it and went for a walk to a local park and dumped it in a bin. Not the most professional action, but it couldnt stay where is was!! https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-does-the-durian-fruit-smell-so-terrible-149205532/

thanks 2 users thanked Messey for this useful post.
peter gotch on 05/04/2023(UTC), firesafety101 on 05/04/2023(UTC)
firesafety101  
#19 Posted : 05 April 2023 11:11:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Originally Posted by: Herb Go to Quoted Post

The smell would found to be polish that was not authorised to be used. LFB did come out and premises evacuated and smell now dispersed. Some employees has completely accident forms to say that they experenced headaches but all fit and well now. My question is, do you think this is RIDDOR reportable as technically it doesn't seem to fit the criteria under RIDDOR regs?

Thanks for the feedback Herb.  I wonder how long the FRS took to clear the issue as compared with the week or so we have all been scratching our heads and, by the way coming up with some great ideas.  Was there a charge £££s ?  In my day with the FB we could charge for a Special Service Call, I never authorised one however.

Take care everyone.

thanks 1 user thanked firesafety101 for this useful post.
Messey on 05/04/2023(UTC)
firesafety101  
#20 Posted : 05 April 2023 11:15:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Originally Posted by: Messey Go to Quoted Post

Some time ago I was called by the security team in our head office to assist in identifying a offensive and disgusting smell in a large open plan office.

I wasnt that concerned as on he 8th floor, it was unlikely to be a repeat of a sewage incident in the basement the previous winter, how upon arrival I was surprised to find a really noxious smell. 80 staff were outside in the corridor and making there way to the staff restaurant and it was my call whether to make this a 999 hazmat incident.

I heard that the smell had been there all day. Nobody was reporting feeling unwell, just uncomfortable. It was 11.30 am. I was completely at a loss so decided to carry out a detailed search of all unlocked spaces in the room with the security team. My DRA determined that 4 hours after noticing the smell, no staff were ill, so that gave us a few minutes to search before possibly escalating the issue In a small storeroom, it was clear that the smell was worse. There were a range of personal lockers inside the space and we opened some with a master key as part of the search. It was then that I found the issue. I nearly vomitted

I wasnt sure what the hell I had found, but it was awful. We traced the staff member whose locker it was, He was on another site for the day but had been in work earlier. It turns out this guy had been abroad and bought back some durian fruit - which is well known for its offensive smell, best described as BO & petrol Now identified, what the hell do we do with it? Our loading bay is completely internal and we have no open air space whatsover. So I resealed it and went for a walk to a local park and dumped it in a bin. Not the most professional action, but it couldnt stay where is was!! https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-does-the-durian-fruit-smell-so-terrible-149205532/

Ha ha Messey, nice one.  Great common sense end to a problem but you could have caused the Park to be evacuated instead of the office block.  How to get rid of a problem?  Move it on ha ha

thanks 1 user thanked firesafety101 for this useful post.
Messey on 05/04/2023(UTC)
A Kurdziel  
#21 Posted : 05 April 2023 11:36:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Carrying fruit is banned on some airlines as hand luggage and I am surprised that  is was not spotted by our Plant Health inspectors when it was brought it.  Research  has confirmed that the smell of durian (described as “pig-excrement, turpentine and onions, garnished with a gym sock”) is actually from ethanethiol and its derivatives  which is exactly the same substance as was causing the smell in my labs the last week!

Small world… 

thanks 2 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 05/04/2023(UTC), Messey on 05/04/2023(UTC)
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