Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
E Bromiley  
#1 Posted : 24 April 2023 21:05:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
E Bromiley

I’m doing a research project regarding the fact that though face masks are required by employers and being clean shaven is a critical component of their effectiveness, it doesn’t appear to be enforced beyond the face fit test. Generally the actual practice seems to be that if it is being worn, that is “job done”, regardless of what it says on the tin. I am aware of the legal exceptions to this requirement and the alternative options not requiring the user to be clean shaven, as well as RPE being the last line of defence. This is purely about those that should be shaving and why they do not (fashion, not believing it makes a difference) and why nothing is done about it (too hard, fear of legal battles). There appears to be very little research on this topic in terms of the above as well as statistics regarding the number of users who are actually shaving for this reason as opposed to preference to be shaven regardless. Any comments are appreciated

Edited by user 25 April 2023 10:28:38(UTC)  | Reason: Clarity

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 25 April 2023 09:30:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: emm.plant@me.com Go to Quoted Post
This is purely about those that should be shaving

The duty and obligation (should) do not arise until the company ends up concluding employees must undertake an operation that requires use of RPE as a control measure. Employers head to this default position regardless of the hurdles of contract to address religious & gender discrimination in order to shoe horn employees in to what is intrinsically unsuitable equipment based on often poor information.

Your search for statistics unfortunately will be skewed - there will be those who leave or get placed on alternative duties due to a clean shaven policy being impemented whilst at the same time there will be those who do not join a company due to such policies. Then there are the enlightened who change product and/or practices to remove the need to be clean shaven so the decision to shave is unlrelated to any RPE requirement.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
peter gotch on 25/04/2023(UTC), E Bromiley on 25/04/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 25/04/2023(UTC), E Bromiley on 25/04/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 25 April 2023 09:30:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Originally Posted by: emm.plant@me.com Go to Quoted Post
This is purely about those that should be shaving

The duty and obligation (should) do not arise until the company ends up concluding employees must undertake an operation that requires use of RPE as a control measure. Employers head to this default position regardless of the hurdles of contract to address religious & gender discrimination in order to shoe horn employees in to what is intrinsically unsuitable equipment based on often poor information.

Your search for statistics unfortunately will be skewed - there will be those who leave or get placed on alternative duties due to a clean shaven policy being impemented whilst at the same time there will be those who do not join a company due to such policies. Then there are the enlightened who change product and/or practices to remove the need to be clean shaven so the decision to shave is unlrelated to any RPE requirement.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
peter gotch on 25/04/2023(UTC), E Bromiley on 25/04/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 25/04/2023(UTC), E Bromiley on 25/04/2023(UTC)
firesafety101  
#4 Posted : 25 April 2023 12:08:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

The fire and rescue services use positive pressure BA to ensure the wearer permantly receives air from their cylinder and leaks from the facemask are to outside.  The BA Control measures require an estimate of the time from start up to the warning of low cylinder pressure when the wearers should be on their way out.

Any leaks mean those calculations are useless as the duration of air is reduced and the wearer needs to be on the way out earlier.

Hard work may reduce duration as well.

thanks 1 user thanked firesafety101 for this useful post.
E Bromiley on 25/04/2023(UTC)
antbruce001  
#5 Posted : 25 April 2023 13:06:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
antbruce001

You may want to have a look at this previous discussion.

http://forum.iosh.co.uk/posts/t132556-Face-Masks-and-Refusal-to-Shave 

Tony.

thanks 1 user thanked antbruce001 for this useful post.
E Bromiley on 25/04/2023(UTC)
E Bromiley  
#6 Posted : 25 April 2023 13:19:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
E Bromiley

Thanks all, I did search for a similar forum already so I’m not sure how I missed it. What steps did you take to search for it Tony?
antbruce001  
#7 Posted : 26 April 2023 06:55:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
antbruce001

I knew I had commented on the discussion, so I just looked up my previous messages.

Sorry, that doesn't help you improve your searches.

Tony.

thanks 1 user thanked antbruce001 for this useful post.
E Bromiley on 26/04/2023(UTC)
E Bromiley  
#8 Posted : 26 April 2023 09:52:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
E Bromiley

Your help is still very much appreciated! I can see it is even more of a loaded question than I was thinking and I’m going to need to simplify it a bit for my research project
thanks 1 user thanked E Bromiley for this useful post.
antbruce001 on 26/04/2023(UTC)
Kate  
#9 Posted : 26 April 2023 10:42:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

This topic has been covered lots of times on this forum.  Without, unfortunately, ever solving it.  Usually the same old arguments get rehashed.

The search facility here isn't the easiest thing to use effectively.

A few years back the HSE ran an enforcement campaign on face fit testing in the construction industry, as companies were failing even to do the face fit tests in the first place. Perhaps shaving came up in that as well?

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
E Bromiley on 26/04/2023(UTC)
E Bromiley  
#10 Posted : 26 April 2023 11:17:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
E Bromiley

Thanks Kate, not just me then ☺️. I’ll have a look. We had such trouble with this when we upgraded our masks which of course of course meant that everyone needed to be face fit tested again. I don’t believe how we handled this was correct but ultimately we crossed it off as complete. But of course then continuing to enforce this is basically impossible, and hoods aren’t suitable for some works, you may even have to wear them constantly as you walk around the site sometimes simply because of the dust on the floor. I do think that sometimes the HSE puts regulations in place without proper support for those needing to comply. When I have contacted them for help I just get sent a link to the guidance document most closely related to my question! I didn’t even realise that our max. exposure limit is double that of countries such as the USA and Canada.
cmarshall1983@outlook.com  
#11 Posted : 26 April 2023 11:45:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
cmarshall1983@outlook.com

In a previous role i was HSE in a large bakery and the biggest hazard in some areas was flour dust.

I am face fit trained and used to complete the exercises with all the staff when required, many would turn up to an appointment with a full beard and the conversation was more around what we are protecting them from, flour dust. 

I used to discuss the long term issues with bakers asthma and how it could limit them doing things they enjoy such as exercising or playing with their children/grandchildren etc. I would then let them know until they were clean shaven it would be an air fed hood and advised their line manager to monitor. 

To be honest i have stubble so it would be air fed for me.

I always tried to make people think how restricting some health conditions can be and how they are created through shortcuts at work, playing on heart strings. 

I know some roles require you to be clean shaven so this would be so much easier to manage. 

thanks 1 user thanked cmarshall1983@outlook.com for this useful post.
E Bromiley on 26/04/2023(UTC)
peter gotch  
#12 Posted : 26 April 2023 13:50:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Emm

I've watched this thread with interesting but without making comment, until you upped the ante with this line:

"you may even have to wear them constantly as you walk around the site sometimes simply because of the dust on the floor."

I've been puzzling as to what you want to get out of this research in a context where you understand that the "General Principles of Prevention" aks "hierarchy of control measures" is to be followed and hence that any PPE is very low down on what to do.

So, is your interest in attempting to establish how much increase in exposure is likely to result from a user of RPE not shaving OR the reasons why they decide not to do this?

If the former then the research has been done decades ago, the HSE's Health and Safety Laboratory ('HSL') amongst others.

I was going to suggest that you trawl through the HSE publications in the RR (Research Report) series but a quick check says that reports RR001 and RR002 were published in 2002 and the research I am thinking of predates those by at least a decade.

I'm SOOO old that when I started, RPE came with a Nominal Protection Factor (NPF). 

Some of the research concluded that for some RPE, particularly half and full mask respirators (other than air fed) the ACTUAL protection afforded was a fraction of fthe NPF, often only 10% or even less.

The early cheap and cheerful filtering facepiece respirators had a much lower NPF but actual performance was close to what it said on the proverbial tin.

So, if you are looking at how much less protection is attained by someone who has not shaved then you probably won't find the research online but you should be able to find early HSL reports in a reference library.

One of the research findings was that some users need to shave not only before starting work but during shift as their stubble grows so quickly!

If your research focuses on the WHY the users are reluctant to come in clean shaven, perhaps this would be a first. I think in general it has probably been simply recognised as an ongoing supervisory issue.

Is there actually much benefit in identifying the WHY or could you spend your time more productively doing something else? If this is something you have signed up for as e.g. part of academic training then may be you don't have much option to change direction!

However, whatever the perceived benefits of this research, if some of these people are using RPE simply due to the dust on the floor then I think you need to revisit the General Principles of Prevention.

In some sectors that dust may be of an explosible nature and dust on the floor (and other surfaces) may equal a secondary dust explosion waiting to happen.

Finally, as regards your comment about different exposure limits in different countries, the UK was a global leader in the late 19th and most of the 20th Century when it came to industrial safety, but very late to the table on matters of occupational health risks, including, in particular, airborne risks.

So we largely borrowed limits from ACGIH (American Conference of Government Industrial Hygieniests) before going along with whatever the EU agreed until Brexit. Now, of course, HM Government seems reluctant to follow other countries' moves to lower some exposure limits and might even be thinking of parading not doing so as a potential Brexit benefit!

You will appreciate that sometimes one gets a light bulb moment a decade or more into a career. For me one of those came during a week spent as part of a team auditing a steelworks in Ukraine - a project manager, looking at environmental issues, someone from Tata Steel to consider energy efficiency and me to consider the H&S. All done to report to the World Bank on what investments might be made in advance of potential EU accession negotiations.

I had been prewarned. The same project manager had been out with one of our H&S people looking at a pharmaceutical works a couple of weeks earlier. This H&S person told me how poor the safety standards were but how good the occupational health measures were.

So, I am sat down with my interpreter and the Medical Director of the facility supposedly as the outside "expert" (well I had inspected steelworks in my time with HSE!) and I asked him to describe the medical surveillance that they did.

"Well, of course, we monitor all those welding stainless steel for manganese exposure". OH, I thought "this is news" whilst trying to not look surprised.

Got back home and on the internet. Manganism aka Parkinson's Syndrome - lots of litigation in the USA. Hardly on the radar in the UK. Coke oven fumes, other contaminants YES, manganese NO.

Edited by user 26 April 2023 14:09:28(UTC)  | Reason: Additional text re geographic differences in exposure limits

thanks 1 user thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
E Bromiley on 26/04/2023(UTC)
E Bromiley  
#13 Posted : 26 April 2023 17:06:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
E Bromiley

Thank you both for your input. I should clarify that we are working on enormous construction sites for main principal contractors so the dust on the floor isn’t under our control. We do actually have on tool extraction but the variety that still requires the use of a dust mask, though it does get rid of more than 99% I believe. That comment was to illustrate that even if we are not the ones making the dust we still need protection in some instances so it isn’t as simple as just wearing it when we are working. I will have a look at what you have suggested Peter - thanks again!
firesafety101  
#14 Posted : 05 May 2023 11:40:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Just this morning I read that Police Scotland have instructed all male officers who may be required to wear FFP3 masks to shave off ther beards and moustaches.

One officer has won a tribunal case in 2019 against his employer on grounds of women officers were allowed to wear long hair on their head despite it being a Grab risk.  (Equality Act).

HSE have said the wearing of ffp3 should only be a last resort.

thanks 1 user thanked firesafety101 for this useful post.
E Bromiley on 05/05/2023(UTC)
grim72  
#15 Posted : 05 May 2023 11:51:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
grim72

Yup read that this mornign too - see: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65482560

Not sure what effect an FFP3 mask will have on some of the reasons given but I did also note it states there will be exemptions for religious, cultural, disability or medical reasons and they are seeking alternatives?

Just consultation at this stage it appears.

thanks 1 user thanked grim72 for this useful post.
E Bromiley on 05/05/2023(UTC)
E Bromiley  
#16 Posted : 05 May 2023 12:20:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
E Bromiley

Very interesting!! I think previous to now the only tested successful defence has been religious and skin conditions but I don’t think it has really been tested yet in other ways. I suspect generally the co. gets a FF test done and then looks in the other direction. Given this is not a private company then there will surely have to be some sort of concrete answer on what to do.
E Bromiley  
#17 Posted : 05 May 2023 12:24:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
E Bromiley

I’ve come across a Govt. requested report by the government’s All Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) for Respiratory Health's consultations relating to the hazards of silica dust issued earlier this year. One of the recommendations is to make silicosis notifiable to the HSE. 🤯 How is it not already?! The more I look into this the happier I am that I have chosen the topic.

Edited by user 05 May 2023 12:25:33(UTC)  | Reason: Date added

E Bromiley  
#18 Posted : 05 May 2023 12:32:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
E Bromiley

The problem they will have is similar to my particular trades where you aren’t stood in the same place doing the same task, even within a single day. So portability of extraction or protection has to be factored in because you can buy the most expensive equipment in the world but if it is clearly not being used you are still stuck in the same situation.
thanks 1 user thanked E Bromiley for this useful post.
MariahHocking on 11/05/2023(UTC)
Coyle07  
#19 Posted : 31 January 2024 10:00:44(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Coyle07

Originally Posted by: grim72 Go to Quoted Post

Yup read that this mornign too - see: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65482560

Not sure what effect an FFP3 mask will have on some of the reasons given but I did also note it states there will be exemptions for religious, cultural, disability or medical reasons and they are seeking alternatives?

Just consultation at this stage it appears.

That resulted in a £15k settlement for each of the four officers who raised legal action on the grounds of sex and disability discrimination - which was supported by the Scottish Police Federation - and Police Scotland have all but abandoned the idea. 

Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.