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lisar  
#1 Posted : 07 August 2023 12:35:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lisar

Hello,

Sorry for yet another post regarding RIDDOR and its probably been covered lots of times.

My scenario is a Colleague was out delivering to Customers and asked if she could drop something off that was for her at her Friends house on the way to a Customer delivery when she tripped over at her Friends house on the pavement and has been absent over 7 days as a result. 

I dont believe this to be a RIDDOR as I would not say its work related but it has the Team here divided. 

Wgat are your thoughts on this one?

chris42  
#2 Posted : 07 August 2023 13:05:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Not work related, not RIDDOR (on a frolic of their own).

firesafety101  
#3 Posted : 07 August 2023 13:10:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I wonder ? If the employee asked permission and was granted, and if she has been paid while off work injured then it could be deemed work related therefore RIDDOR.
lisar  
#4 Posted : 07 August 2023 13:12:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lisar

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post
I wonder ? If the employee asked permission and was granted, and if she has been paid while off work injured then it could be deemed work related therefore RIDDOR.

Hi yes they asked someone and were told yes. We dont pay for absence as a Buisness whether sick or an accident

peter gotch  
#5 Posted : 07 August 2023 15:05:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi lisar

I think that it's one of those borderline cases and, in particular, that what is important is not whether the injured party is paid when off sick/injured but whether they would be paid whilst actually doing what they were doing at the time of the accident.

RIDDOR defines "work-related accident".

“work-related accident” means an accident arising out of or in connection with work.

From there you need to go to Section 52 of the parent legislation, HSWA to get the definitions of "work" and "at work".

(1) For the purposes of this Part—
(a) " work" means work as an employee or as a self-employed person; (b) an employee is at work throughout the time when he is in the course of his employment, but not otherwise ; and (c) a self-employed person is at work throughout such time as he devotes to workas a self-employed person; 

and, subject to the following subsection, the expressions " work " and " at work", in whatever context, shall be construed accordingly.

....and if this person was doing something virtually identical to what they had been sent to do and HAD been given permission to a "homer" then I think that it is likely that a Court would include that they were "in the course of his employment" [noting that UK law assumes that a reference to the masculine gender includes the famine unless the context directs otherwise - Interpretation Act 1978].

Then you need to consider whether the accident resulted "out of or in connection" with the said "work".

....and at this point it is where you probably need to ignore HSE's guidance on RIDDOR and stick to reading the legislation.

If this was a postie, nobody would probably doubt that tripping on a pavement is an occupational risk, so why would it be any different for anybody else doing deliveries? We know from RIDDOR stats that a very significant proportion of all reports are for "slips, trips and falls" on the what is often described as "level".

Remember that RIDDOR is not about admission of liability nor even thinking about suing the local authority for a defect in the pavement! 

RIDDOR is written as an administrative means of providing intelligence to the enforcing authorities on how many "reportable" and "recordable" incidents are happening.

Then you need to consider how business critical it is to keep the reported numbers down.

There might be good reasons for not WANTING to report - though usually with flawed rationale - e.g. a Contractor asked for incident statistics by a prospective Client who mistakenly makes an immediate correlation between numbers and performance as regards managing health and safety risks - when actually being given some numbers may be indicative of better performance than the competing Contractor who has a SUPPOSEDLY clean sheet.

I've always followed exactly the same mantra both when working for the HSE and since.

"If in doubt, report. You can NOT be prosecuted for reporting something that is not reportable. You CAN be prosecuted for NOT reporting something that turns out to be reportable".

Remember that the enforcing authorities only follow up a tiny fraction of what is reported.

thanks 3 users thanked peter gotch for this useful post.
M.cooper.99 on 08/08/2023(UTC), mike350 on 10/08/2023(UTC), MariahHocking on 11/08/2023(UTC)
Ross-Clarke  
#6 Posted : 07 August 2023 15:51:27(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Ross-Clarke

This is very interesting but I would argue they were on works time and had the permission of their employer to be where they were. Therefore I would say that this is a RIDDOR.   

chris42  
#7 Posted : 07 August 2023 18:19:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I don’t think that just because she was being paid at the time of the accident makes it work related in itself. There are lucky people out there that have a paid lunch time, anything the employee chooses to do in that time is their own business and not work related. So, I would say that she only asked to take some time away from work to do something for herself for a short period of time. The key part of that for me anyway is “take some time away” otherwise why would she need to ask if it was work related. It does not matter if she was delivering something, which happens to be what she also does for a living.

We all know just because something happens in works time does not make it a RIDDOR reportable accident. Someone walking across a perfectly good car park with appropriate light levels etc trips over their own feet, is not considered to be work related.

So, for me at least I would not report as I don’t see her being at work or working for the company when the incident happened. It is interesting to see other people differing views on this though. I admit, I seem to be in a minority.

thanks 1 user thanked chris42 for this useful post.
MariahHocking on 11/08/2023(UTC)
Holliday42333  
#8 Posted : 08 August 2023 09:39:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Holliday42333

Originally Posted by: chris42 Go to Quoted Post

I don’t think that just because she was being paid at the time of the accident makes it work related in itself. There are lucky people out there that have a paid lunch time, anything the employee chooses to do in that time is their own business and not work related. So, I would say that she only asked to take some time away from work to do something for herself for a short period of time. The key part of that for me anyway is “take some time away” otherwise why would she need to ask if it was work related. It does not matter if she was delivering something, which happens to be what she also does for a living.

We all know just because something happens in works time does not make it a RIDDOR reportable accident. Someone walking across a perfectly good car park with appropriate light levels etc trips over their own feet, is not considered to be work related.

So, for me at least I would not report as I don’t see her being at work or working for the company when the incident happened. It is interesting to see other people differing views on this though. I admit, I seem to be in a minority.


For what its worth chris42, I absolutely agree with you.
Not work related in any way for me.

thanks 1 user thanked Holliday42333 for this useful post.
chris42 on 09/08/2023(UTC)
PDarlow  
#9 Posted : 08 August 2023 10:40:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
PDarlow

I agree with chris42. Not a work activity therefore I wouldn't report.

thanks 1 user thanked PDarlow for this useful post.
chris42 on 09/08/2023(UTC)
firesafety101  
#10 Posted : 08 August 2023 14:10:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

This is never "black and white".

If the employee was wakling across the car park tripping over his own feet (as per Holliday) was about to use his car for business purposes then it would be RIDDOR reportable. 

firesafety101  
#11 Posted : 08 August 2023 14:18:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Walking haha

Heather Collins  
#12 Posted : 08 August 2023 16:56:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Heather Collins

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post

This is never "black and white".

If the employee was wakling across the car park tripping over his own feet (as per Holliday) was about to use his car for business purposes then it would be RIDDOR reportable. 

Actually I don't agree that this example would necessarily be reportable. It's not arising out of any defect with the car park and it's not arising out of or in connection with a work activity.  Simply being at work doesn't make anything that happens to you there a reportable accident.  I have investigated almost exactly the same incident as described (it was a corridor not a car park) and we did not consider it reportable.  Neither did my friendly local HSE Inspector when I asked him later on (yes we really did have one of those).

The fact that HSE got rid of the extremely useful RIDDOR ACoP with tons of good examples in it was a travesty in my opinion as it would have settled 90% of the RIDDOR questions that get asked on here.

thanks 2 users thanked Heather Collins for this useful post.
HSSnail on 09/08/2023(UTC), chris42 on 09/08/2023(UTC)
HSSnail  
#13 Posted : 09 August 2023 06:50:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Originally Posted by: Ross-Clarke Go to Quoted Post

This is very interesting but I would argue they were on works time and had the permission of their employer to be where they were. Therefore I would say that this is a RIDDOR.   


 

When i was an isnpector the report would have gone straight in the bin. Not a work activity Not RIDDOR.

thanks 1 user thanked HSSnail for this useful post.
chris42 on 09/08/2023(UTC)
HSSnail  
#14 Posted : 09 August 2023 06:54:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Originally Posted by: firesafety101 Go to Quoted Post

This is never "black and white".

If the employee was wakling across the car park tripping over his own feet (as per Holliday) was about to use his car for business purposes then it would be RIDDOR reportable. 

Another one for the bin in my enforcement days - may be at work but not a work activity not RIDDOR- if he had tripped over a hole in the car park different story

thanks 2 users thanked HSSnail for this useful post.
chris42 on 09/08/2023(UTC), lisar on 09/08/2023(UTC)
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