Hi Roundtuit

Given that we rarely disagree why a breach of rule 4?

regards

Mike

I'm not convinced that Mike's thread is a breach of either Rule 3 or Rule 4.

So, the key explanation of Rule 3 is:

3.1. The forums are for professional discussion and debate of workplace health and safety and environmental issues. 

However it might be described the Bibby Stockholm is a workplace for some and there is a duty of care under health and safety legislation towards those accommodated there, and the "environmental issues" they are faced with.

The thread obviously has political connotations but many threads on these Forums discuss issues with political implications.

...and for Rule 4:

4.1. You must not use the forums to pursue or promote a grievance against any individual or organisation. This is not to stifle debate but to prevent unwarranted attacks on others. Members of IOSH may discuss IOSH business on the Members’ forum. 4.2. Discussion about comments made by public figures on health and safety topics may be allowed at the discretion of the moderators.

From my perspective it is a matter of opinion as to whether Mike is either promoting a "grievance" against an organisation, in this case, the UK Govt and those it contracts to operate this facility.

Ditto an "unwarranted attack".

Could easily have quoted "comments made by public figures on health and safety topics". At which point it might be an issue for the moderators.

Edited by user 12 August 2023 15:57:24(UTC)  | Reason: Typo

Hi firesafety

As to your first point, I don't think that the owners of Grenfell are "in the clear".

What we don't know is what checks were prescribed BEFORE occupation, whether by the ultimate client (Government via Home Office) or those contracted to put the facility into operation.

On the rare occasions when legionella rears its ugly head, it is very often the employer/client held to account for NOT defining what is to be done.

On the second point, it is very unlikely that legionella would get into hot/cold water systems OR air conditioning AFTER appropriate testing had been done.

.....all assuming that the water and ventilation systems were appropriately designed and installed, and if that hadn't been done, we are straight back to client procurement decisions. 

So, now we await the results of an investigation if Open Government prevails.

Originally Posted by: Messy

Legionnaires tests were made on the barge before occupation 👍 But the results need to be grown in a lab so takes around 14 days, and occupation was made prior to the test results being known 👎 As whether the remarks in the OP breached forum rules, it's nonsense

H&S is political so not being able to comment is gagging comment on many subjects. I have been critical of HMG's response to.Grenfell - and still am I have never been censured by IOSH mods So ok keep party politics at bay, but to not allow criticism of Govt policy is a dangerous path to tread

Thanks Messy, if that is the case then why the story re Legionella on board, and also why does the story appear on this forum while awaiting results of tests. 

Originally Posted by: MikeKelly

today the Guardian reported that the govt had the legionalla reports 3 days before action!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/14/bibby-stockholm-steve-barclay-ministers-only-told-of-legionella-three-days-after-test-results

Seem to be reading a different version of the same story.

Q) why didn't the council raise alarm in a timely manner and protect the potential inhabitants?

A) a prime opportunity to strike back at government imposition.

The issue is that we have people ie politicians who are usually involved in “strategic thinking” ( ie the vague media bites that passes for political leadership nowadays) suddenly having to deal with actual procedures which need to be followed ie someone competent has to come in and test the water system for legionella and then culture the samples and evaluate  the results and pass them onto the appropriate authority ie Dorset council  who then need to communicate this to the correct person in the Home Office (in August  when most are on holiday!)  who can then advise the correct minister who then has to take a decision based on the best current scientific advice ( remembering the ruling in Regina v Board of Trustees of the Science Museum: CA 26 May 1993) while still trying to manage the new cycle which nowadays runs faster than ever ( “I want news not facts”).

So now everybody is confused-  is this something that the IOSH competency framework goes into?

Could it be possible for Legionaire to have been introduced into the water after all the checks had been carried out.

In principle, the answer would be yes - Legionella is a naturally found in water systems, it becomes a problem if allowed to grow under suitable conditions. I have no idea when the barge in question might have been tested for Legionella, but since the Government have been talking about placing people on it for weeks, if not months it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that testing was carried out weeks ago. If nobody was tasked with ensuring that water didn't stagnate in any of the plumbing (about 200 en-suite rooms) then quite concievable that Legionella could colonise parts of the system before people started to occupy the barge - especially given recent hot weather. 

Of course unless we work for the Home Office or Dorset County Council we might never know the accurate time lines involved, so we have to go by what gets reported or distorted by the news media - who never have a political axe to grind and are always scrupulously fair and accurate in reporting either scientific / technical matters or H&S matters. 

Ah, well. Still nothing from IOSH leaders[various] --much the same as Qatar and the deaths occasioned by the football competition.

Leadership, indeed.

bonne journee

Mike

Bonjour Lauren

Thanks for that, nice to have a response even if somewhat belated.

My preference is to discuss the issue on the forums.

What say your team-mates? They can expand on the leadership aspect for all of us to see. It is, of course, a continuing and growing public interest issue.

Cordialement

Mike

PS Who makes up team.IOSH so that we can identify the correspondents?