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Wizzer582ko  
#1 Posted : 15 August 2023 07:55:08(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Wizzer582ko

When sending engineers around the world is a POWRA sufficient. If the work is unseen only generic rams for our operations can be issued and a POWRA carried out at site. Is this sufficient bearing in mind some of the places we go have no conecept of HS.

Kate  
#2 Posted : 15 August 2023 08:00:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Well I have no concept of POWRA.  I am guessing from context it stands for point of work risk assessment?  But what is it - a checklist completed by the engineer, or what?

Wizzer582ko  
#3 Posted : 15 August 2023 08:44:22(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Wizzer582ko

Hi. Its a point of work assessment. A series of questions regarding correct piece of kit, isolations, stored energy etc. Its a double check to ensure hazards have been identified. The questions can only be answered yes or no and work can only start if the answer is yes. My problem is if my guys are halfway across the globe i can only go by the info received about the work from the customer and use generic style risk assessments. The POWRA or POWSA can make sure the basics are in place. My worry is if it would be considered suitable in a court of law if there was an incident.

Work scopes can change and the POWRA should deal with these changes. Also it is not uncommon for the actual work to be nothing like what was originally discussed with the client and its not as if our guys are just up the road.

A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 15 August 2023 08:57:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Depends on where they are. In the UK the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations make risk assessment for work activities compulsory within the UK. Activities outside the UK rely on the local law. In many places outside the EU risk assessment is not a requirement or in some jurisdictions H&S law is not enforced which would explain why   “it is not uncommon for the actual work to be nothing like what was originally discussed with the client…” . If it is your staff going out then they could sue your company  in a UK court for civil damages but again local law applies for criminal matters.

POWRA sound a bit like dynamic risk assessments and the HSE does not like them because the on the hoof assessments are often not recorded or reviewed. The correct way to do a dynamic risk assessment is to check what you find on the day against the overarching risk assessment and if you find something novel,  feed that back into the big risk assessment.    

Wizzer582ko  
#5 Posted : 15 August 2023 09:09:08(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Wizzer582ko

Thanks for the reply.

The POWRA is in addition to the main risk assessments and is there to check that isolations etc etc are in place and to identify any problem areas. It does not take the place of a risk assessment.

This is a bit of a stupid example but it explains what i mean. We could send guys to empty a pool in Ghana and provide rams etc to carry out the works but on arrival there is a shark in the pool. There is no way this could have been foreseen but it would be identified on the POWRA and rectified before emptying the pool.

peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 15 August 2023 11:11:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi Wizzer

Actually something happening in Ghana probably is quite a good example.

Whilst I have not looked at the health and safety legislation in Ghana it is quite probable that the legislation is evolving from some Factories Act enacted in colonial days towards something reminiscent of the requirements in HSWA - in particular the key words "reasonably practicable" are quite probably in there somewhere.

Given that Ghana is sometimes cited as one of the success stories of post colonial Africa, my guess is that its health and safety legislation may have evolved further, so as to be closer to the current UK model than some former British colonies.

So the key point here is that any risk assessment in the UK has to be "suitable and sufficient" and only the Courts can determine what does and does not meet that standard based on the specific circumstances at the time.

But even if there isn't a local equivalent EXPLICIT requirement to do a risk assessment, if there is a duty to do what is "reasonably practicable" it is IMPLICIT that a risk assessment needs to be done. This is a recognition on the case law on what these two words mean. Edwards v National Coal Board 1949 or Marshall v Gotham 1954.

Hence it is quite common for an organisation to deploy generic, specific, and dynamic/Point of Work assessments depending on what is to be done.

There can be no hard and fast answer to your original question. It depends on so many variables.

I hope that a POWRA in Ghana does not result in the death or mistreatment of a shark! 

Kate  
#7 Posted : 15 August 2023 11:27:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

If the questionnaire is well constructed and properly used, and there is a clear process that is followed scrupulously when an answer is "No", then frankly I don't see much more you could do.

That's a lot of ifs of course.

The little more you could do is follow up the issues encountered by engineers in the field and feed the findings about these into their training (giving them the scenario of the shark, and having a discussion about what they would do).

Wizzer582ko  
#8 Posted : 15 August 2023 12:23:12(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Wizzer582ko

Thanks for your help on this. Has put my mind to rest. I can also confirm that no sharks were injured in the draining of the pool :)

thanks 1 user thanked Wizzer582ko for this useful post.
peter gotch on 15/08/2023(UTC)
Wizzer582ko  
#9 Posted : 15 August 2023 12:28:18(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Wizzer582ko

Shark steaks were delicious. 

A Kurdziel  
#10 Posted : 16 August 2023 08:12:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

The shark in the pool scenario is exactly what the dynamic risk assessment  process is for!

You turn up clutching your existing  risk assessment in your sweaty little hand and something unexpected turns up (not a shark in our case but a herd of llamas!) . What do you do? Well in our government department there was a process:

  1. Does the existing risk assessment cover this scenario? If not then look at-
  2. Is there any way that you can safely do the job by adding extra controls-you made need to consult with  managers at this point? If not give up (its really important that that the give up option is available)
  3. If  you think can do some apply additional controls eg ask someone who knows what they are doping to remove the sharks llamas or whatever.
  4. Is it safe now? If yes carry on, if not apply more controls or look at the give up option.
  5. Note this down  and build it into the main risk assessment; it’s learning experience and if this happens again the organisation will be able to response quicker and more confidently in the future.

 

thanks 3 users thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
MikeKelly on 16/08/2023(UTC), peter gotch on 16/08/2023(UTC), John D C on 18/08/2023(UTC)
ryan57  
#11 Posted : 13 September 2023 07:06:16(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
ryan57

if a shark in the pool, that one must be in aquarium size

I cannot imagine that scenario

A Kurdziel  
#12 Posted : 14 September 2023 08:46:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

“if a shark in the pool, that one must be in aquarium size

I cannot imagine that scenario”

Not if your name is Emilio Largo!

Look that up in your database!

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 14/09/2023(UTC)
HSSnail  
#13 Posted : 14 September 2023 09:22:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Originally Posted by: Wizzer582ko Go to Quoted Post

This is a bit of a stupid example but it explains what i mean. We could send guys to empty a pool in Ghana and provide rams etc to carry out the works but on arrival there is a shark in the pool. There is no way this could have been foreseen but it would be identified on the POWRA and rectified before emptying the pool.

Sorry im a little late in picking this up - while an actual shark may not have been anticipated i think animals/contamintaion of some kind is a common hazard if working on areas close to water, even in UK let alone where exotic animals are common! For me i would be including the potential for some kind of "contamination" (sorry could not think of a better word), your control being to carry out a POWRA to deal with this. As others have said in UK HSE not keen on dynamic RA so i would be looking at a form to record that POWRA and the training of staff to undertake.

Hope that helps and that i have muddied the waters for our bots who we appear to getting more off - obviously they think H&S are good to learn.

peter gotch  
#14 Posted : 14 September 2023 10:25:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Thanks AK. Looks like a good spot in the sunny pool.

HSSnail - perhaps instead we Weil get a discourse on zoonoses, including CWD and biosecurity issues such as Phytophthoras.

A Kurdziel  
#15 Posted : 14 September 2023 11:15:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

One problem with   the H&S as she is done in this country is the idea of the “perfect” risk assessment. This is one that covers every single possible eventuality, including sharks in swimming pools, llamas with farmers, bees on knees etc. These are produced by the resident H&S expert and issued to the workers with the message: “treat this as holy scripture. Do not deviant or you will be branded a heretic”. So they guys rock up and find, this being the real world not an exercise, a herd of llamas in a swimming pool!  What are they to do? Could they improvise or should they contact HQ to ask questions, or should they just go home? Despite being at the front end and being the only ones who understand the reality of the situation, they might feel bound to follow what the  RAMS say(to avoid being burned at the stake)  even if they know they are irrelevant. This is where the empowerment part of a proper dynamic risk assessment comes from. They will make a decision based on their understanding  but they need to report is back to the H&S guru who has to acknowledge that the risk assessment they have created is flawed and be willing to update it.

thanks 1 user thanked A Kurdziel for this useful post.
peter gotch on 14/09/2023(UTC)
Connor35037  
#16 Posted : 14 September 2023 15:38:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Connor35037

Stay calmer if you want to harm a Llama, call a Llama Farmer

(From "Horrible Histories" TV show)

thanks 1 user thanked Connor35037 for this useful post.
peter gotch on 14/09/2023(UTC)
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