Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
clane  
#1 Posted : 11 December 2023 10:30:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
clane

Morning, 

Interested in getting people's views on this.

Was carrying out a school inspection recently and walked into an occupied classroom and observed open flame candle located on window sill. Candle was in a run of the mill candle holder (not fire resistant or heat resistant surface) but it was pushed back from the edge. Teacher explained that candle was being used to create a relaxed calming environment, kids all sat down quiet and reading textbooks/ipads. Candle was behind teacher so not accessible to children and there was no flammable materials around it. Teacher re-assured me that it woud be blown out every time they left classroom. There as no risk assessment in place. 

Personally I didn't like it. I just don't like open flames in those settings unless in a controlled environment and I don't think there is a need for it especially where there are much safer alternatives available. After speaking with fire officer, they also didn't like it and whilst discouraging their use, felt it was up to school to decide. However after speaking with some other safety colleagues in team, they were more open to the idea and saw no issue with it as long as the school effectively managed the risk. Some going so far to say that there is an educational benefit to it. Now I could see that if teacher had school kids sat around explaining pros/cons/dos/donts etc but not in the scenairo I've described. 

I know there have been hundreds of incidents alone over the past 4/5 years of candles starting fires resulting in serious injuries and fatalities at all times of year and whilst there is no definitve answer I'm wondering if I'm being too risk adverse?

firesafety101  
#2 Posted : 11 December 2023 11:07:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

As a retired fire officer and with experience of attending fires involving lighted candles of different sorts I'm horrified at the thought of a candle burning in a school classroom.

Fair enough the teacher had answers to the questions but IMO they didn't ask enough questions.

e.g. what happens if/when the teacher is asked to leave the classroom durig a lesson?

What is the age of the children?

The candle is behind the teacher so he/she can't see if anything goes wrong.

Did they have an appropriate fire extinguishe to hand?

I always advise against using candles and I am aware of some fire and rescue services do not allow their use in certain circumstanses i.e. sleeping risks.

I wonder if the education establishment is aware of the candles in classroom and do they have any instructions for using.

thanks 2 users thanked firesafety101 for this useful post.
Messey on 11/12/2023(UTC), Kate on 11/12/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 11 December 2023 11:36:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

With the best will in the world the teacher has no control should the unexpected happen - they / a child needs to leave the class room, the fire alarm goes off, there are "accidents" of a toilet nature etc.

Then you look on the other side of this scenario and whilst not strictly an employer COSHH matter (as the candle is likely not school supplied) what about the fumes being emitted affecting those with breathing issues? I doubt given the description of the candles location it was about the hypnotic effect of the flame dancing and more about aromatics.

Even now as we head towards christingle within the Church of England there will be no candles pushed in to oranges - the "light" having been modernised to a glow stick for elf "n" safety purposes.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 15/12/2023(UTC), A Kurdziel on 15/12/2023(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 11 December 2023 11:36:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

With the best will in the world the teacher has no control should the unexpected happen - they / a child needs to leave the class room, the fire alarm goes off, there are "accidents" of a toilet nature etc.

Then you look on the other side of this scenario and whilst not strictly an employer COSHH matter (as the candle is likely not school supplied) what about the fumes being emitted affecting those with breathing issues? I doubt given the description of the candles location it was about the hypnotic effect of the flame dancing and more about aromatics.

Even now as we head towards christingle within the Church of England there will be no candles pushed in to oranges - the "light" having been modernised to a glow stick for elf "n" safety purposes.

thanks 2 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 15/12/2023(UTC), A Kurdziel on 15/12/2023(UTC)
Kate  
#5 Posted : 11 December 2023 12:10:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

This ought to be covered in the fire risk assessment for the school, didn't it?

thanks 1 user thanked Kate for this useful post.
Messey on 11/12/2023(UTC)
Messey  
#6 Posted : 11 December 2023 12:53:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Messey

Its a lovely idea that the teacher is trying to created a calm atmosphere for learning and a long way from my days at school where a thrown wooden and felt blackboard rubber on the back of the head was the system adopted to help with students (including me) with their learning.

There's obviously the need for open flames in some education settings. Cooking and science lessons spring to mind, but I would hope that appropriate control measures would be in place to mitigate risks and to allow these important life lessons to be taught

The use of an Elton John type candle in the wind open flame candle on a window cill in a non fire resistant holder and with control measures consisting of 'promises' not to leave it unattended already seems weak. And then to consider the purpose is to create an aspirational calm environment for learning - however laudable - is pushing it a little too far

Is there any reason this group of students need additional calming measures?  Is there not another lower risk method of creating calm (short of joss sticks and cannabis !!) - lamps, music? dolphin sounds?

I would be very very careful about mixing all parents most prized possessions (their kids) with the unnecessary use of any naked flame - especially for this non essential and minimally controlled way.

Fire originating from naked flames spreads rapidly and kill. Sorry to be so tabloid headline wrter about it, but its true. There's no cosy development stage where something gets hot and you can smell it or the AFD picks it up giving time for intervention and evacuation. 

Without a shed load more justification - plus an appetite for more control measures - I would snuff this idea out immediately

Those would have read my posts before will note that I am always a 'lets make it work' type of practitioner. I get annoyed at the 'you cant do that' brigade who want to stop anything with an ounce of risk. But this candle + school equation = too much for me 

thanks 1 user thanked Messey for this useful post.
Yossarian on 11/12/2023(UTC)
clane  
#7 Posted : 11 December 2023 14:49:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
clane

Thank you all for your comments and differing perspectives.

As H&S professionals I get it that we might interpret risk differently from others but I think I'd rather live with being labelled a Christmas killjoy, Grinch and Scrooge all rolled into one, than having to deal with the alternative. The current RA does not mention use of candles in classrooms so that needs to be adjusted. I've also been alerted to a second incident where a FRA was being conducted and a candle was left lit whilst classroom had been vacated so worryingly I think this is happening a lot more than I thought and a robust response is required. 

Yes how we perceive risk is subjective but I do find it somewhat troubling that my colleagues and I are not singing from the same hym sheet on this subject and could well find ourselves in a situation where the advice we are providing is at opposite ends of the scale. Is this simply one of those times where you give your honest opinion and let the decison makers make their decison? 

Edited by user 11 December 2023 15:06:03(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

PDarlow  
#8 Posted : 11 December 2023 14:54:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
PDarlow

My honest opinion - in a controlled environment, I have no issue. What you describe is not a controlled environment, therefore I have an issue with it and you are correct to review and intervene.

thanks 2 users thanked PDarlow for this useful post.
Yossarian on 11/12/2023(UTC), thunderchild on 13/12/2023(UTC)
Connor35037  
#9 Posted : 11 December 2023 16:22:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Connor35037

There are safer options (coloured led lights etc.) that give a similar relaxing vibe without the need for a naked flame. Lots of restaurants use them these days on tables instead of candles.

thanks 3 users thanked Connor35037 for this useful post.
Kate on 11/12/2023(UTC), Yossarian on 11/12/2023(UTC), thunderchild on 13/12/2023(UTC)
Yossarian  
#10 Posted : 11 December 2023 17:20:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Yossarian

I'm not saying the scenario is identical (and you don't mention the age of the pupils), but this HSE link to a recent court case has some pretty stark lessons about the use of naked flames in schools:

https://press.hse.gov.uk/2023/06/30/school-fined-35000-after-child-severely-burned-at-carol-concert/

What I would say is there are plenty of other options you could consider if you are wanting to create atmosphere, including LED tea lights, or even fully enclosed candles in some kind of lamp on a fire retardant surface - for the more mature secondary class.

But I would not want to put teachers in a situation where they have to manage naked flames as well as fractious pupils.

thanks 2 users thanked Yossarian for this useful post.
thunderchild on 13/12/2023(UTC), speedfire on 08/01/2024(UTC)
JamesClifford  
#11 Posted : 15 December 2023 09:24:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
JamesClifford

Given the stories I hear from my family members who work in classrooms I would not put one in and elect for the battery operated 'faux' candles instead.

There are too many variables to consider in that type of setting to make it worth the the time and effort.

Back in the day the only place we saw real candles in school were in assemblies where they were at the front away from the kids and there was plenty of supervision.

Roundtuit  
#12 Posted : 15 December 2023 09:45:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Faux candles have their own issues in a school environment as they are typically powered by button cells, and if poorly sourced often have no screw securing the battery compartment.

This thread has reminded me that for years the class never saw the final days of the school advent candle nor that everyone was given their "turn" in blowing out the flame after the day had been burned.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 15/12/2023(UTC), speedfire on 08/01/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 15/12/2023(UTC), speedfire on 08/01/2024(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 15 December 2023 09:45:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Faux candles have their own issues in a school environment as they are typically powered by button cells, and if poorly sourced often have no screw securing the battery compartment.

This thread has reminded me that for years the class never saw the final days of the school advent candle nor that everyone was given their "turn" in blowing out the flame after the day had been burned.

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
A Kurdziel on 15/12/2023(UTC), speedfire on 08/01/2024(UTC), A Kurdziel on 15/12/2023(UTC), speedfire on 08/01/2024(UTC)
Messey  
#14 Posted : 15 December 2023 14:21:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Messey

Originally Posted by: Roundtuit Go to Quoted Post

This thread has reminded me that for years the class never saw the final days of the school advent candle nor that everyone was given their "turn" in blowing out the flame after the day had been burned.

Or that lethal Advent hanging mobile thing that Blue Peter's Christopher Trace persuaded 1960s kids to make from coat hangers, tinsel and candles .  I remember them saying the tinsel should be flame proof but even then it looked so dodgy .  https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=512389702820097

firesafety101  
#15 Posted : 17 December 2023 11:52:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Hi Messey, I just watched 3 minutes of that video and wonder how many house fires were caused by those lighted candles.  Hate to think fatalities as well.  There are so many things wrong with that.

Have a great christmas 

firesafety101  
#16 Posted : 29 December 2023 14:51:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Slight variation of this thread, many eating establishments have burning candles on tables and when I sit down before ordering I blow out the candle.  More often than not the waiter/waitress will come over and light it again and I will ask politely not to.

My wife was in a restaurant in Heswall yesterday and there was a lighted candle on her table.  She is very poor sighted and did not notice the candle until she dropped one of her gloves which landed on top of the glass containing the candle and her glove started to burn.  She quickly picked up her glove and very slightly burned a finger.

Nothing was said to the staff so they won't know there has been an 'accident' involving the candle.

 

Cambridge Fox  
#17 Posted : 02 January 2024 15:24:16(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Cambridge Fox

Late to the topic, sorry, too much festive cheer, but as I also work with schools (which while a generally low risk sector, offer a whole host of challenges due to being locally autonomous and rarely operationally controlled by the employer) I think this is an interesting scenario with not necessarily an immediately right or wrong answer. Let me explain...

Working on the assumption that I'm on site for some reason other than lighted candle spot-checks, if I were to walk into a classroom and see this (which I have and for the same perceived benefits as outlined here), it would absolutely be jumping to near if not the top of 'things I need to make enquiries about'.

If, through discussion with the person in charge (probably the teacher in this space) it transpires that the risk has been properly considered and documented (FRA or elsewhere); the teacher/person in charge is able to make an argument for the justification of 'why' this is desired and alternatives are not suitable; in the course of open questioning they can demonstrate they have considered emergency arrangements, and what they do if they leave the classroom etc, then I might be open to leaving it as is and including in my report reference to these discussions and the importance of the control measures being maintained.

Things that might change my opinion would be: lack of demonstrable understanding of the risks from the person in charge; apathy; blatantly dangerous location (next to the crepe paper, say) or number of candles; efficacy/reliability of fire evac procedures; maintenance of alarm and detection systems; is the building multistorey/residential/listed; evidence of candles being used throughout the school and in some cases perhaps burning in unoccupied rooms...etc

In this scenario, I’d be particularly interested in hearing the teacher’s argument as to why it needs to be a real candle/flame. As others have said, there are plenty alternatives out there. I suspect false but not ill-intentioned assumptions are to blame, “ I have candles at home with my children so I can have them here”.

I'd make a point of flagging this with the head during my debrief to make sure they were aware - as they don’t always know when a colleague has acted on free will out of good intentions, and they have an unquestioned ability to 'snuff' the issue out. (sorry). As you say, clane, flag your concern, give your opinion and let the decision makers make their decision.

Like Messey, I try to engage with most problems from a 'let's see what it takes to do this appropriately' perspective and work back from there. On the rare occasion that the conclusion of this process is actually the prohibition/cessation of an activity, I find this outcome is more readily bought into when the person in charge makes this decision once they understand the full range of matters to be considered and the level of effort required. It can also help prevent the negative connotation around 'H&S says no' – there are times/audiences when this is undoubtedly the best approach, but I find treating teachers like the professionals they are to be better at achieving positive and lasting outcomes.

In summary, the outcome for me would probably be that the candle(s) would need to go unless they could evidence robust management across all relevant areas, i.e. prove to me you can do this safely. Some schools may decide it’s too much effort, but they would be doing so with a better understanding of why it’s an issue and what it might take to manage the risk appropriately.

However, in my case and I suspect others as well, all of this is moot as our insurers have made clear that naked flames outside of controlled environments in science, D&T and catering (with the exception of hot works, which require a whole other set of considerations) are forbidden and could result in an uninsured loss. In our case, whether or not the H&S risks can be managed becomes irrelevant.

thanks 2 users thanked Cambridge Fox for this useful post.
peter gotch on 03/01/2024(UTC), clane on 04/01/2024(UTC)
elburt  
#18 Posted : 04 January 2024 13:55:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
elburt

Hi we don't allow open flames in our schools this includes birthday candles, it is against our schools fire arrangments. This is a blanket ban across our schools and the use of LED candles that flicker provide a similar ambience is the recommended alternative 

wait until theres been no incidents for a while and then they start to let the pupils blow the candles out as the perceived risk has reduced. 

Edited by user 04 January 2024 13:55:56(UTC)  | Reason: missed words

chris42  
#19 Posted : 05 January 2024 13:47:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I have watched this thread from the beginning, it’s fascinating and nearly a thousand views.

The odd thing is that when I was in school and I was supposed to be reading a book, they took a dim view of anyone staring at the window and not looking at the book.

Chris

firesafety101  
#20 Posted : 05 January 2024 15:24:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

ADHD is something that was not invented when I was at school and I have learned over recent years I have that and dyslexia, looking out of windows is a symptom of ADHD.

speedfire  
#21 Posted : 08 January 2024 15:28:18(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
speedfire

Candles in school classrooms are a topic of debate. While some people believe that candles can create a relaxed and calming environment, others argue that they pose a fire hazard and are not worth the risk. The use of candles in classrooms is not recommended by fire safety experts, as they can be a completely unnecessary hazard when it comes to children and school events . In fact, some fire and rescue services do not allow their use in certain circumstances, such as sleeping risks. It is important to note that candles are not the only way to create a calming environment in a classroom. There are many alternatives available, such as LED, battery-operated or electric candles, which take away the dangers of a naked flame. In conclusion, while candles may seem like a good idea to create a calming environment in a classroom, they pose a significant fire hazard and are not worth the risk. It is recommended to use safer alternatives, such as LED, battery-operated or electric candles, to create a calming environment in a classroom.
Evans38004  
#22 Posted : 08 January 2024 16:32:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Evans38004

Reported - hidden link

Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.