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DavidHughN  
#1 Posted : 31 October 2024 15:25:01(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
DavidHughN

Following the conversion of a Victorian Flour Mill to 10 residential leasehold properties, we, the leaseholders, took over the management of the building then acquired the freehold from the developer. This includes a standalone 17.5 m Victorian mill chimney which, at the top, is in need of brickwork repairs.

Potential contractors will not quote/estimate for the work until they have inspected the structure which requires us therefore to arrange access.

Can we as the client hire the scaffolding? Our reading of CDM 2015 suggests that we cannot (unless we are the developer, which we are not.). If not what is the best course of action?

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 31 October 2024 15:31:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I appreciate they will want to get hands on (checking the mortar between the bricks) but have you considered drone footage to get some quote comparisons?

That way you can leave the contractor to address access to the task.

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 31 October 2024 15:31:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I appreciate they will want to get hands on (checking the mortar between the bricks) but have you considered drone footage to get some quote comparisons?

That way you can leave the contractor to address access to the task.

DavidHughN  
#4 Posted : 31 October 2024 15:41:51(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
DavidHughN

Yes we have had two drone surveys of the chimney. The brickwork at the top of the chimney is suffering from spalling i.e. crumbling, caused by hard frosts   However as I understand it, replacing bricks is expensive and so only deeply delaminated bricks should be replaced .  And the way to test for delamination is by tapping with a hammer.  So inspection is needed.

achrn  
#5 Posted : 31 October 2024 16:34:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Originally Posted by: DavidHughN Go to Quoted Post

Can we as the client hire the scaffolding? Our reading of CDM 2015 suggests that we cannot (unless we are the developer, which we are not.). If not what is the best course of action?

You (corporately) as a client can appoint a scaffolding contractor to install suitable scaffolding.  You would however need to manage the appointment and contractor properly - CDM has exceptions for a 'domestic client' who is an individual appointing designers or contractors to do work on their own house, but any organisation (such as a management company or a residents association) is treated as a professional client and assumed to know what they are doing.

You (corporately) would however need to specify what sort of scaffold, what load capcity, and what areas it needs to access, and will need to arrange weekly inspections when it's in use - a steep learning curve.  If you get it wrong, you might end up paying for this scaffold now and then paying to take it down and put up a different one to get the works done.  If you get it very wrong it obviously has safety concerns.

If you need to go this route I would strongly advise you to find a local construction preofessional (Structural Engineer, possibly Surveyor) who can either act as project manager, or at least provide professional advice.  You don't need a big company - a suitable one-man-band could probably do what you need.  If you pursue this option I'd start at https://www.istructe.org/find-an-engineer/ but there are other options if you google 'find an engineer' or similar.

However, I don't think I'd go that route at all initially - 18m high is well within the range of a 'cherry picker'.  This one will do twice that: https://www.hss.com/hire/p/telescopic-diesel-boom-lift-43m (not advocating that one - it's just first google hit) and that's from a generic plant hire, not anyone particularly specialist.  You might be better approaching your would-be contractors and asking if they can do the initial pricing inspection from a cherry picker.  I'm not sure how you'd arrnage that if you wanted to get prices from (say) three contractors - it would be nice to hire only the one cherry picker - but it's an avenue to explore.  I note there may be a reason why this isn't viable, but I'd ask the contractors if it's an option.

DavidHughN  
#6 Posted : 01 November 2024 12:35:05(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
DavidHughN

Thanks for the really helpful and prompt reply. With the close proximity of the chimney to a busy road – the chimney is sited, at its nearest, only 1 metre away from the pavement - and to the side wall of a house, scaffolding rather than a cherry picker is the preferred means of access for inspection purposes. And to minimise costs to us, it is intended that the same scaffolding is used for the brickwork repairs,

There is a complicating factor. As well as the brickwork repairs, we have been advised that the remaining four steel rings have to be removed as a matter of urgency. This again rules out using a cherry picker for repairs. An experienced steeplejack firm 130 miles away in the northwest is prepared to quote for the removal of the rings and to provide a written report on the chimney’s condition and the cost of required repairs. However, in view of the distance involved they need “the site owner/client to appoint a local scaffold contractor direct to fully scaffold the chimney.”

So, as well as for inspection purposes, the contactor would then be using the scaffolding, which we have hired, and are responsible for(?), to carry out the repair work. Would we then by default become the main contractor and so be responsible for setting up the site in accordance with H&S regulations, providing facilities etc., obtaining additional insurance and being liable in the first instance for any third-party claims?

 We have already received advice from a local structural engineer regarding the condition of the chimney. As you recommend, we should therefore accept his offer to be the project manager. Would this get us round the H&S CDM 2915 strictures that an inexperienced client should not be the contractor?

Further help appreciated.

 

peter gotch  
#7 Posted : 04 November 2024 11:13:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Hi David

As you appear to have worked out this project is subject to the CDM Regulations.

....and as there will be more than one Contractor that means that as the Client you need a Principal Designer and a Principal Contractor.

If you appoint your structural engineer as Principal Designer then they should be able to make your life easier in terms of carrying out Client duties.

The potential problem I see is with the scaffold - "temporary works" within the meaning of BS5975 - best practice if not statutory guidance. You need the confidence that it won't collapse during erection, use and dismantling BUT also that it won't make an unstable chimney even more so.

So, you probably need a scaffolding contractor who has their OWN structural engineer to sign off the design of the scaffold. YOUR engineer may well not be competent to do this, partly as they are likely to work to modern Eurocodes and the chimney wasn't designed to similar!

Alternatively perhaps the engineer might work for the steeplejack who you have engaged.

Hence, it needs someone who has an understanding of historic structures and a scaffolding contractor with experience of this type of scaffold.

Good luck, Peter

achrn  
#8 Posted : 04 November 2024 14:58:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Note: I don't disagree with what Peter has said, I'm just jumping back to pick up a few specific questions

Originally Posted by: DavidHughN Go to Quoted Post

There is a complicating factor. As well as the brickwork repairs, we have been advised that the remaining four steel rings have to be removed as a matter of urgency. This again rules out using a cherry picker for repairs.

Yes, I can see that if you're taking down rings you'll want a scaffold.  If you're planning to use the same scaffold for initial inspection and eventual works, it will need to be specified as strong enough for the materials (bricks, steel rings) that might be on it.  Tube and fitting scaffold is not my thing, so I don't know how different it would be, but it potentially needs to be a higher load capacity than just access. 

Quote:

So, as well as for inspection purposes, the contactor would then be using the scaffolding, which we have hired, and are responsible for(?), to carry out the repair work. Would we then by default become the main contractor and so be responsible for setting up the site in accordance with H&S regulations, providing facilities etc., obtaining additional insurance and being liable in the first instance for any third-party claims?

More or less, yes.  You (corporately - the body having the work done, which is the Client ) won't become the main contractor, but if the Client (you) haven't appointed a Principal Contractor (one of the CDM duty holders) in writing the Client (you) attracts all the CDM duties that would have fallen on the Principal Contractor.  So you don't become the contractor, but you become legally obligated to do everything the Principal Contractor (probably the main contractor) would have been obligated to do.  Yes, that includes being in control of the site so ensuring adequate welfare facilities etc.   It also means making sure the site is kept secure - if kids climb the scaffold and fall off you'll need to demonstrate you took reasonable measures to prevent that.  A real contractor knows this stuff, but it will be a steep learning curve for someone that isn't.

Quote:

 We have already received advice from a local structural engineer regarding the condition of the chimney. As you recommend, we should therefore accept his offer to be the project manager. Would this get us round the H&S CDM 2915 strictures that an inexperienced client should not be the contractor?

You'll still need to appoint a Principal Contractor, and the problem I foresee is that that the scaffolding contractor won't accept that appointment (and rightly so - teh scaffold contractor won't be there most of the time - depending what you appoint them to do at most they'll come once a week to do an inspection and make sure the scaffiold is still fit for purpose). 

Your structural engineer (if you appointed them) almost certainly won't have insurances to let them be any of the contractor roles.

Your Steeplejacks are the only other option, and they won't like it and may be unfamiliar with it - they might normally be further down the management chain (ie reporting to a main contractor Principal Contractor).  If anyone can persuade them to take the role, it will be the structural engineer.

I also highlight that although you're focussed on contractor issues, you'll also need a Principal Designer.  They have some CDM duties too, and in the same way, if you don't appoint one in writing the duties fall on the Client.  The structural engineer should be able to help with this (either doing it, or persuading the steeplejacks to be it). 

I would suggest yes, get your structural engineer to be project manager, and make sure the appointment says they will advise on how you teh Client discharge the duties under the CDM regs. 

I note that Peter highlights making sure your structural engineer is competent - yes you need to do that, and it's a little out of the ordinary, but there are plenty of structural engineers that are familiar with older brickwork and know enough about scaffold - yours is not a really really esoteric rare situation.

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