Posted By Jason911
So I travelled the length and breadth of the country doing my risk assessments at each or our locations, making several recommendations for each.

Trouble is, on returning to the aforesaid sites it appears that a couple of managers despite having the procedure spelt out to them on several occasions in black and white, have chosen to either implement only some of the recommendations, or none of them at all.

My question is obviously it would hit the fan should an accident occur as a result of one of these not being introduced. When I complete a risk assessment I try and be as honest as possible and imangine that I am an independant party, to avoid being bias and this therefore results in a good number of what I believe are reasonably practicable further control measures. However where do you stand generally with a location manager disagreeing with you and not implementing your recommendations, regardless of whether an accident occurs or not?

Is it deemed as not completeing the risk assessment procedure, or are those in power allowed to disagree with you? (Thats not meant in the big headed way that is sounds!)

Posted By Jeffrey Watt
Jason

A friend was at an interview recently and was asked how do you deal with someone opposed to your way of thinking.

He went through the usual stuff, explain it again, come at it from a different angle, use the power in who you report to but the clinker for me was "If someone is so opposed to the way I want to proceed well, maybe they have a point. Maybe I should revisit the situation."

Now that doesn't mean cave at the first sign of resistance and roll over like a puppy so the manager can tickle your belly but sometimes the guys just don't get it or there are extenuating circumstances that they couldn't let you in on.

Or some are just really awkward and need ...no I'll stop there.

Best of luck mate

Jeff.

Posted By Salus
Jason, has your company got a RA policy? which should be linked to job description responsibilities. Get the main persons involved in the task / s to provide input and all to agree a RA format.
Senior management can then OK this as company procedures making it easier to control and rectify the problems you are facing.

Hope this helps

Posted By Darren J Fraser
Hi Jason

You state that you are the only 'competent' person to carry out risk assessments, I assume that you have the in depth knowledge of each task to be able to support that statement.
I have attended various courses etc in my role as H&S Manager, but at the end of the day I do not consider myself competent enough to carry out a risk assessment on any of the processes within the industry I work within - I understand how each process works and the hazards involved (training & knowledge) but I do not operate the equipment (experience). (Competent - Reg 7 of MHSW - Paragragh 5 -a person shall be regarded as competent for the purpose of paragraghs 1 and 8 where he has sufficent training and experience or knowledge and other qualities to undertake the measures referred to in paragraph 1)
Train all the managers in Risk Assessment, along with other members of the workforce, get a couple of the senior management team trained. Have them conduct the RA's in teams of 2 - 6, and then see if you have a problem having the corrective actions implemented.
You might also like to point out Section 7 of HASWA74 - not endanger themselves or others, and to assist the employer with implementing the duties under the said act etc, etc.

Posted By Jason911
Thanks to all, but I think were drifting away from my original question of whether it is reasoanble to expect each and every one of our recommendations to be introduced, I mean were not perfect are we?

As for getting managers to do their own risk assessments, its not going to be possible to track completion in a company of our size.

As for a competent person, I don't remember any regulation stating that you had to be an expert in each and every task you assessed, thats why you consult with employees surely? The definition of competent in the regulations is very simple and straightforward, is it not?

Jay

Posted By Jason911
Well, what if the H&S used to be a location manager? Plus prior to his promotion he worked in 75% of the areas covered in the risk assessment?

Aside from that, I still believe that it is in an H&S professional's job description to undertake and assume responsibilty for conducting risk assessments, with the consultation of the workforce.

What about everyone else?

Jay

Posted By Stephen Galley
I totally inderstand your delemna Jay.

It's very easy to state that you have to be competent in all areas of the work process, but then surely all assesments would have to be carried out by every single person on site, which would be nice in theory, but not practical.

I totally agrree with CWT's advise of sending a copy of the report to the CE / MD and senior managers encompassing the managers's rssponses and commitment to solutions / or lack of.

This should at least prompt further actions or alternatively a fuller explanation of why improvements or lack of reasonable practicable duties cannot be met.

Steve

Posted By AJM
Hi Jay and good thread,

I fully agree and empathise with your dilemma I myself have this issue of assessments being ignored. I also fully agree that the managers should be trained and give ownership in all areas to the process. But I am afraid we dont all have the luxury of having that in place we have to work to that point and everyday is a battle. It often seems like you have to bully things through when in effect its in all their interests.

As for the point about the MD etc thats excellent I myself used to use that you often have to apply pressure from above but my current company my immediate managers keep telling me not to bother the director with e-mails or problems like this.

I believe that it shoud be law that the Health and safety Manager report direct to the head man in some form or another, in fact i would go as far as to say if i was in his position i would want to know if things were not being done. Because as we all know ignorance is not an excuse in Law.

Sorry to rant on Jay but i would say if you have access to the board or directors thats the way to apply pressure, but I fully understand your dismay.

Good luck my friend

Alan

Posted By Jason911
Thanks Alan, Wise words indeed. I am already the most hated man in the Company, so what harm can esculating it up the ladder do?

Is it just me, or do other H&S Managers walk into a building and watch managers physically faces drop? 'Oh **** who let im in?'

Jay

Posted By Ian H
Jay

This sounds like a bit of a catch-22! It is difficult to get 100% compliance with risk assessments and many companies I work with seem to experience the same problem.

I have found that going through an on-the-spot talk through the job helps; with the occassional 'what if' or 'how about if you did this' thrown in. I have found that it is important to get agreement to the controls at the time. Also, you may note that a control has been recommended, but you need to put a plan in place to achieve compliance. The plan may include an education process, briefing and then formal agreement with a line in the sand for compliance.

It is, in my opinion, important to involve people in developing work procedures and risk assessments.

Sometimes it can be a long-winded process, but I do believe that the education approach works best, rather than a grudging compliance when things are dictated. Though, after the line in the sand is drawn and everyone knows what should be done and why, it is down to monitoring and discipline for the small percentage who just can't be bothered. That is when you need to have the boss on board!

Posted By warderic
Jay, I have the same problem. I always feel overcome with joy when a manager says to me " I haven't got time for all this S***". It always gives me a great sense of pride to know that I have studied for 20 years and have achieved, in the opinion of some, a masters degree in S***.

Posted By Tony Brunskill
An interesting dilemma this one. Are the other "other qualities" referred to in the Management Regs perhaps "powers of persuasion". We cannot be all things to all men and maybe there is a training need here. That said we are as safety professionals morally and legally responsible for the advice we give in good faith. Perhaps a more information based approach with the managers may be the way forward. An outline of the S37 duties particularly focused on "Consent Connivance or Neglect" would be useful. Another training need here probably or you will have this battle in every risk assessment. Above all involve them in the decision making regarding the controls. Much more difficult for them to argue the toss over implementation if they themselves made the decision.

Regards

Tony

Posted By AJM
Now then Jay where shall I start,

I have had the advantage in working in a company with most things in place and a decent level of commitment to safety from above to a company with nothing in place and no real hardcore backing from above.

The fact is you can be the best safety man in England and produce the finest risk assessments and policies in the land and use the best training tools and awareness PowerPoint's known to mankind, but you cant do it alone if you have not got the support you wont change a lot, you may change little bits but nothing will change in the core values of the company in gaining that positive health and safety culture we all strive for.

The point is you have to believe it is attainable because that is what drives us.


Now I have stated the obvious lets look at some solutions and ways in which I have got things done.

1. Corporate liability training for managers and directors

2. Incorporate safety duties into contracts of employment

3. Get the very top man in the company on board and get a direct link to him.

4. Never promise what you cant deliver

5. Involve the safety committee win their hearts and minds and they will do your arguing for you and can sometimes be a good method of getting things done at times.


Just a few basic things there no trade secrets. But integral to it all is the line leaders and supervisors they are the important link. One saying I use to them and one they MUST live by is " They can only expect people under their controls best safety attitudes to be as good as their worst safety attitude "

It all sounds so easy right, well obviously it isn't it is a constant chipping away. There are days I get so fed up of stupid comments from managers but you have to think they either don't know or don't care.

I work on the theory they don't know and if they don't care its because they don't know.

Another thing to remember is these supervisors and managers need to remember should the proverbial hit the fan if an assessment has been ignored, it wont be the safety manager in the dock it will be the supervisor and the top man. To say "oh sorry judge we had to get that job done we didn't have time or the job would of stopped" Isn't really going to wash with a Judge.

There are other comebacks like when they say things like "oh we don't do a lot wrong you should see some firms we hardly do anything wrong" My answer " Just because someone breaks the law a lot doesn't mean you can break the law a little"

There's just a few points in my experience but there are lots more we all have our own ways and we all love what we do, well most of the time.

Good luck and take care.

Alan

Posted By Steve JB
Hi Jason,

I have to say i have tracked this debate with interest and in some ways agree
with all the comments made. However i must say that i agree with Bob's first
posting that it should be the managers responsibility to carry out the
assessments with your support. As a health and Safety Manager i also have the
same issue, however, in order to build a 'safety culture' responsible people
need to accept that responsibility. For me this has become a training issue
for managers to which there was initially some opposition but the sections 2, 3
and 37 arguments do help, especially when the implementation of controls is required.

Hope this helps

Regards

Steve

Posted By Steve JB
Jay,

You could use a suite of generic risk assessments which cover 90% of all
foreseeable hazards and risks relating to their types of working environment
and the activities they carry out there, then train your managers in risk
assessment techniques who should then make the generic assessments specific to
their store. At least they would have the basics to work from which would give
them a headstart. You would however have to audit and monitor the process
which is what you would normally do.

My fear would be that they would just work off the generics and not make them
specific. But on the other hand if you do their assessments for them how can
they take full owenership for something they are responsible for?

Steve

Posted By Steve JB
Jay,

Sounds to me like you have an issue which requires escalating up to your MD. I
would be careful that you are not in the firing line should something go wrong.

Steve

Posted By jackw.
Hi, I agree with the view that you can't possibly be "the competent person" for all risk assessments. We are all trained H&S professionals with different degrees of expertise, depending on our background. I for example am a rolls royce trained engineer with several relevant qualifications. A change for me means I am also a qualified Social worker and now a fully qualified H&S advisor. But I am not nor is any one of us, despite some of my managers and workforce thinking differently, the oracle with knowledge and expertise of all things. You need to involve managers, workers TU safety reps if you have them in the process. If they won't do them then you have a major H&S culture problem that can only be solved by senior managers/directors taking up the baton and running with it. At the end of the day any one of us: your managers, can carry any risk we wish. but of course we thus carry the responsibility (the can) if things go wrong. Might help you if you explain to them that they may well end up explaining their actions to an HSE inspector or worse a courtroom.

Hope this helps

Posted By Jason911
O.k Steve, so let me just be clear on this.

Is the concensus of opinion that a manager of a supermarket chain is responsible for completeing their own risk assessments and implementing their own recommendations for further controls?

Its is indeed not the responsibility of the companies H&S Dept, who will just advise them of the process and maybe audit the procedure?

If that is so you would need to have absolute faith in each and every one of your lets say 30-350 managers to correctly identify and control each existing as well as new significant risk. In a company the size ours how do you achieve that?

Am I not a competent person in the eyes of the regulations? Furthermore have I not bridged the gap of anything with which I am not familiar by consulting with employees according to the regulations?

It is not possible to train 30-350 managers in H&S to my level of knowledge and understanding of the regulations and ACOP's, so how do you bridge that gap?

Posted By Jason911

Thanks. I really would like to know what people think of this post? Sorry should have said that!


Is the concensus of opinion that a manager of a supermarket chain is responsible for completeing their own risk assessments and implementing their own recommendations for further controls?

Its is indeed not the responsibility of the companies H&S Dept, who will just advise them of the process and maybe audit the procedure?

If that is so you would need to have absolute faith in each and every one of your lets say 30-350 managers to correctly identify and control each existing as well as new significant risk. In a company the size ours how do you achieve that?

Am I not a competent person in the eyes of the regulations? Furthermore have I not bridged the gap of anything with which I am not familiar by consulting with employees according to the regulations?

It is not possible to train 30-350 managers in H&S to my level of knowledge and understanding of the regulations and ACOP's, so how do you bridge that gap?

Posted By Jason911
A Whole hour and no reply!!!!

I am hurt guys. really!!!