Posted By Sean Stephenson Alexander, I was rteplying to snt's previous comment about going for an MSc to get MIOSH/CMIOSH however you obviously got your comment in before me.

Posted By snt CPD does not necessarily means H&S duty or going on another short courses. If you check with IOSH on this website: http://www.iosh.co.uk/fi...ntroduction+Contents.pdf Activities such as mentoring, coaching, managing budgets all count as CPD. It is left for individual to prove it to IOSH board. You dont have to engage on their own CPD programme. Going on further studies can count as CPD, acquiring other skills such as First Aid, Waste Management can also count. What baffles me like most, is there is no clear cut answers by IOSH. Most institutes count years of experience for you as well. Law diploma can count as well, and I add mountaineering and surfing in order to assess the risks associated with those hobbies. What I would suggest is that of an open approach based on active attainment to enrich oneself with opportunity to learn and promote H&S, like attending seminars, delivering lectures, writing in journals, research should give fellow, and two years after becoming a member or 2+ years with IOSH should lead to CMIOSH. The CPD of at least one seminar or activities in 2 years to maintain membership. How about subscribing to H&E magazines? All these are valuable as well.

Posted By Alexander Falconer snt has raised very good points here Suppose I could use this thread as part of my CPD, conduct my own extreme sports risk assessments (standing in the middle of a river up to your waist trying to catch the fish of a lifetime, or leaning over the side of a boat in a gentle swell, or deciding which part of the road to cross on a Friday night pub crawl - lol)

Posted By Stupendous Man Alexander, I have queried this with IOSH already. If you are not already MIOSH, you must meet their educational standards in order to get CMIOSH, there is no opportunity to count experience in lieu of qualifications. The quirk of this is that existing MIOSH who have enrolled on CPD will be able to get CMIOSH even if they do not have any formal health and safety qualifications!! If you read a couple of other threads that have been posted, it is clear that those of us posessing Diploma Part 1 are not only denied access to CMIOSH, but to add insult, we are then banded in a membership group with holders of a qualification that is not even intended for health and safety professionals (NEBOSH Cert). I would even settle for GradIOSH membership and a requirement for IPD/CPD (even though I already have 2 1/2 CPD cycles under my belt) in order to progress to CMIOSH. Will this be possible? Well, I suspect not, and even if it was, to get the procedure in place prior to this years membership renewals would be a huge task.

Posted By Stupendous Man The fact that IOSH have stuck to their guns over the educational requirements and not opened any other kind of dialogue over the issues we have raised would suggest that there is absolutely zero chance of a mature candidate route being considered, let alne adopted.

Posted By Alexander Falconer Like snt states there is no BODY OF KNOWLEDGE, if IOSH cannot determine the basic core skills required in H&S, no wonder the NEBOSH Diploma part 2 pass rate is so low.

Posted By Stupendous Man Dave, In your 'Flabbergasted!!!' posting on the members section of the discussion board, you find it difficult to believe that a consultant with 'just' the NEBOSH Certificate will be able to do an adequate job. Yet here you are saying that there are plenty of good people with no H&S qualifications!! Contradiction?

Posted By Rod Meadows Hi Dave, Still enjoying being antagonistic then I see!!! It's always worth logging on just to see your comments, as someone who's known you since you were an EHO and found it difficult to find you for advice anywhere else other than a Golf Course in Spain, I find the comments very refreshing. Regards Rod With regards to the thread............IOSH gave notice well in advance........this could go on and on

Posted By john frank I have been reading the posts placed here with interest. I have 10 years management and 7 years H&S experience. I hold NEBOSH General and NEBOSH Construction and numerous other IOSH, IQA, Management, Engineering and IEMA qualifications. I joined IOSH at the start of the new membership mess/scheme. I was informed that I could join as a Tech IOSH. It disappoints me however that IOSH seemed to have sorted out the membership scheme (fills the coffers), and rewarded the lucky ones with chartered status( no problem with that) yet the poor relations of the family are rewarded with a CPD Scheme that has are yet to put in place, which as a result prevents me from building my CPD portfolio even if I wanted to, (still not sure what we have to aim for by building a CPD as a Tech). I cannot believe how unprofessional this professional body runs itself. Anybody worth there salt should having everything in place before introducing new membership schemes. Surely part of expanding your knowledge through passing various courses/exams which are not necessarily at NVQ/Dip Level in addition to experience or several years should be taken into account in order to progress up the ladder. I’m not saying a Gen Cert holder should progress on that alone, but a combination of various course and ever increasing experience should be recognised. IOSH don’t even recognise there own courses. At the moment, you can progress to Chartered status, without attending any certified training other than Dip/NVQ4 or similar and experience could be fairly limited as well. Having spoken to a few people and employers, the title Grad IOSH gives the impression that you are on the bottom wrung of the ladder, where in fact you are now at the level which would have gained MIOSH this time last year. Maybe we should all go elsewhere, to a body that recognises experience and an enlarged level of knowledge through multiple course disciplines.

Posted By Keith E I don't particularly disagree, with Richard's 'bite the bullet' statement - as an engineer I finally did that a few years ago to get MIOSH/Grad IOSH level of membership, because of the inflexibility of IOSH etc. However, as I started to highlight on my previous postings, is that I believe to a large extent (but not by any means, totally) that safety management is a branch of engineering - especially if employed in the manufacturing/engineering sectors, which I have mostly been employed in since starting to work in 'safety' 10yrs ago. Afterall, I think I am right to say that IOSH itself formed mainly out of the manufacturing sector. I think what hacks people off most, that moving into safety from an engineering background, is the requirement to re-study various engineering/technical topics. I would suggest that most people who already have engineering/technical qualifications will have studied (and passed) qualifications to a far greater depth than IOSH require. Equally this argument can be applied to chemists as regards understanding the principles of CoSHH, electricians for electrical practice etc etc. Please before anybody comes back at me on this point, I use my engineering experience as an example only, the argument is equally valid for other skills. Afraid to say the only people I have ever seen to struggle on IOSH courses, have been people without the underpinning understanding of the sciences/technical disciplines. Hence my view that safety is a branch of engineering/science. As for other comments by others about about safety being a vocation etc - sorry guys been doing safety for too long now, I long ago lost my Rose tinted spectacles. The job is simply away of paying the mortgage every month, funding the kids though university etc. If someone wants to make me a job offer outside of safety, paying the same - I would probably be happy to take it. However, the reality of narrow minded recruitment agencies/employers is with us all.

Posted By snt This thread has open wider issues for IOSH to consider. And I think, it still boild down to having a BODY OF KNOWLEDGE to work to. Moreover, I see no reason why degree/PDDip/MSC holders are lump with NVQ and NEBOSH. Efforts should be rewarded and judged accordingly. I would propose this as the body of knwoledge for H&S practice. The level at which it is to be judged should be at degree level and institutions awarding them to be monitored. Initial Certificate or Entry level. Basic safety, reliability, risk concepts and legislation – NEBOSH Gen Cert/NVQ3 PROGRESSION: Degree level CORE HEALTH AND SAFETY BODY OF KNOWLEDGE 1. OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY PRACTICE 2. RISK AND SAFETY MANAGEMENT 3. THE MONITORING, ANALYSIS AND CONTROL OF TOXIC SUBSTANCES IN THE WORKPLACE 4. INDUSTRIAL TOXICOLOGY, OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH PRACTICE AND EPIDEMIOLOGY 5. THERMAL AND ACOUSTIC ENVIRONMENT 6. ERGONOMICS AND WORKPLACE PSYCHOLOGY 7. LIGHTING, IONISING AND NON-IONISING RADIATION 8. Construction Safety Practice 9. Management of Health, Safety and the Environment 10. Safety Technology 11. Occupational Health, Safety and Environmental Law 12. Enforcement Policy and Practice 13. Organisations, management and leadership 14. Quality Management 15. Project Management 16. Statistics and probability for risk, reliability and quality analysis 17. Public Health Integration 18. Information Technology 19. Integrated Technology Studies 20. Open Project These body of kwowledge are the underpinning principle for somebody to call themselves a professional. Exemptions can be given where candidates have covered the elements in their studies. As usual, open response are welcome

Posted By Richard Spencer Keith Quite agree with the general tenet of your thread. The reality is as you say dealing with, if you’re a contract consultant, narrow minded employment agents (not all just most) who cannot conceptualise the intellect it takes to be an engineer or scientist. Further more it has been my experience, particularly in the construction industry (oil and gas) and heavy engineering that the people who get promoted are in many cases the same elk as those who they face across the ‘IR table’ (industrial relations). Cunning and politicking seems to outweigh good judgement. Being a successful safety manager is more about politics than academic skills which is why many threads always defer to safety not a component of engineering. Furthermore, I totally agree and will almost certainly get pilloried for saying so, that those without a first degree and calling hold the engineering fraternity is such low esteem. In any project the two live side by side, the construction manager sees the safety manager as a bargaining tool and one that he actively courts. I have seen a construction site go from the reward system for good performance to ‘3 strikes and you’re out’, safety doctrine. Being a safety consultant or contractor is about survival and this means that the Universities are currently failing in the syllabus by not providing the student with the reality of industrial politics. To the uninitiated it is to see humanity at it inglorious worst. If you’re an engineer and have worked in the construction industry then you know what I am talking about. The seeming capitulation to the mob and the demonisation of individuals is as bad as it gets. Am I bitter, yes, am I sorry I became a safety professional no. However, the last two years of my career have taught me to be more politically astute and less academic aware, particularly as it applies to the construction (oil and gas industry). Richard

Posted By snt I quite agreed with Richard, it is all about politics, with focus lost on the intellectual aspect of safety as a technology for improving process, safety and saving lives. H&S is not just about boys scout risk assessment lacking probability and informed judgement. A safety professional should be able to make an informed judgement and standby the decision in law court. At various times on other forums I have restrained myself from asking who employed certain H&S specialists for type of help questions they are asking for. Surely they have been employed to do tasks which they are not adequately prepared for, just NVQ based certificates. What is the leverage to argue your case to the board members when the certificate you are holding is not valid for the role (see NEBOSH Gen Cert) and which your line manager is holding. The edge a fully trained professional have is the ability to apply higher knowledge of H&S to argued the case. The fact still remains, BSC accounting does not make one a Chartered Accountant, in the same vein, NEBOSH, GNVQ, Degree/PG does not make a one a Chartered H&S, but fulfilling the required standard would do. Majority of the Body of Knowledge highleighted would have been covered at degree/PG courses. And IOSH can rest assured that Chartered member can argue their case. We should not reward mediocrity and elevate it to Chartered status.

Posted By Keith E For some reason, my last posting has been censored. Really don't see why. All that I said, is that there does not seem to be agreement even among members, as to what membership level any one particular person is - my individual case being but one example (follow the earlier part of this thread) I do not think IOSH have managed the membership changes very well.

Posted By Alexander Falconer Did manage to get a peek before it was censored Sounds like the bods at IOSH cannot take criticism very well (probably get censored too) This thread looks like it would go on and on I also note that Martin Keeler has raised the subject (in a different format) - see "Forgotten Tech SP's" - will he get a slap on the wrist from the moderators like I did for daring to post this thread on the Members forum too

Posted By Keith E I strongly object to being censored, when as stated I made no personal criticisms or insults to anyone. I maintain my right to pass acceptable comment as to my views on how IOSH have dealt with the membership changes

Posted By Alexander Falconer Funny how Bill's response is Identical to Ian Waldram's posting which was removed. I have responded to Ian direct and am willing to put this to bed for once and all As a Tech IOSH I will hold my hand up and volunteer to be a "guinea pig" for IOSH At the end of the day, lets not forget IOSH have to take the credit for achieving organisational charter status. This is aimed for the good of ALL H&S practitioners irrespective of membership level

Posted By Keith E From my point of view, there is totally unjustified censorship going on, by the Moderators of this discussion forum.

Posted By Alexander Falconer Whatever happened to the right of free speech!

Posted By Richard Spencer Jocularity is obviously called for? Have I missed something here, may I ask why have so many contributions been removed? Is it the lack of objectivity and the onset of emotion? Gentlemen please - remember this is a forum although be it open, of a learned society. Did the moderators feel that the remarks were descending to the level of a pub in Portsmouth when the fleet was in after much grog had been consumed? Where’s CPO Mechanician Dave W, with the Gavel? Let’s keep it light and easy! Richard