Posted By Jim Walker I’m not sure if this is a breach of the forum rules as it might be considered “political”, if so I apologise. There is an early day motion going through parliament regarding corporate manslaughter. Have a look at http://edm.ais.co.uk/web...html/motion.html/ref=793 If you agree with it, write to you MP and ask them to give support

Posted By Ekim Yelloj Ashley, Do I detect you have had some expereinces with unions in the past. I have found that they are very pro-active when it comes to safety. Regarding corporate manslaughter, I think the unions will enforce this carries.

Posted By Jim Walker Ash, Maybe it isn’t, but we need to raise the profile of this. The union’s opinion is neither here or there, the present government doesn’t take much notice of them on anything. I’ve made a Bl**dy nuisance of myself with my MP and for one reason or another he is now showing something other than passive activity. I’m going to his “surgery” tomorrow morning and my eventual aim is he signs if just to get me out of his hair. If enough of us show concern, pressure will finally give a result. There is another motion today, on almost the same subject, by Laurie Quinn, unless cancelled again.

Posted By Robert M Edwards There is a lengthy article on this on www.lawzone.co.uk which members might also like to read.

Posted By Dave Wilson Hopefully tongue in cheek comment above!!! If you think of why unions came to be in the first place both are as important. However with the collapse of FTSE etc and the whole pension fiasco in the UK at present, I think this is just the 'hot' topic. On another note if all employers took the HS&E issue in the workplace seriously then there would be no use for unions within this area. Remember things like, 'mens rea'

Posted By Dave Wilson Because at the moment there are probably hundreds of decisions being made every day by 'Managers' who knowingly and deliberately make decision which affect safety in the interests of profit, time, ignorance, cant be bothered and who get awaywith it! Once it happens, and they get away with it they will do it again. Why do you think there is so much research and published material into behavioral safety? Who would have thought that leaving the bow doors open etc etc this legislation will make 'Management' and 'Managers' to be held directly resposible for their actions or non-actions and cannot hide behind the 'I didn't know' They are management! It is their business to know. How many accidents in your workplace which you hear about through the grapevine as it hasnt been reported and you find out the reason was the the person in charge allowed it to happen. Sorry, you make this decision knowing the likely safety consequences then stand by to be banged up!!! The Judicial system in this country for so long now has has allowed these people to get away with it. OOPS sorry killed (murdered?) someone at work, oh poor thing never mind have £5k fine and don't do it again or we will make you stay behind after class. The relatives of people who die at work or in a disaster, when asked what they want the overiding answer is for someone to be punished accordingly, is the systemat present doing this? Mens rea, does this not legal speak for 'I'm a director can't touch me!!!!!! as long as the shorholders are happy etc etc etc

Posted By Dave Wilson Apologies, got on my high horse there a bit, but do feel very strongly about this.

Posted By Robert M Edwards Yes that is correct and entirely because the law on the one hand imposed sanctions for corporate killing but also upheld the doctrine of identity. Hence the smaller companies where it was clear who was running the operation could not hide and large companies could. This will alter in the near future we predict.

Posted By Robert M Edwards Jim, The law is forecast to change in this area and has been for some time. Read the obiter statements given by judges in caselaw for details on the 'flagging up' of the discrepancy. The current consultation in progress and the reports into the disasters you and others on this site speak of has been working on changing the law for some time. The 'we' I speak of is all those interested and following progress in the legal changes, through the process in law. In our organisation as a blend of lawyers and Health and Safety professionals but with other health and safety professionals from different occupational sectors who follow case law developments. I agree a change of law is overdue but if you follow all the legal changes they take place over many years. The doctrine of identity for large corporations has been used as a shield so far and that has caused concern in the courts concerned. Raging against the law as it stands is pretty futile. Most of us who feel strongly do something about it by bringing it up in the house ( as in commons) as often as possible via our MPs. That is everyone did it would get it passed as law a lot faster.