Posted By smudge I think that we must accept that this is going to be the norm. The management of road risk is here and the HSE have got to accept that vehicles are a place of work. I do however accept that you are right to be concerned since the injured party was not technically at "work", but his employer still had a duty to assess the risks to his health and safety and I would suggest that in this case the employer did nothing to reduce the risk.

Posted By Ian Jones The vicarious side has been with us for a while as in Smith v Stages 1989 I think the point being made is this is a criminal responsibility. Which I personally think is a good thing.

Posted By Fiona Rathie Hi Please send me a copy of the article in word format. Thanks Fiona Fiona@zonal.co.uk

Posted By William Russell I would appreciate a copy of the article, please send to bill.russell@sirva.co.uk, thanks. Bill

Posted By Geoff Burt It would be interesting to see if this particular case is going to appeal.

Posted By Eric Burt The only problem is that some employees are required to work long hours, maybe as part of a regular pattern or in the case of an emergency (break-downs, fires, floods, accidents etc etc) and the question is - to what degree does the employer (who has knowledge that the employee has worked long hours and will be driving home) have responsibility for that employee when they leave work. A similar question would need to be asked if an employee presented themselves for work and they were unfit through drink or drugs - if the employer sends them home, to what degree is the employer responsible if the employee has a crash. In our organisation we advise the manager to call a taxi to take the employee home if they suspect that they may be at risk if they drive. An interesting one... Eric

Posted By Martin Gray I have read the article in question but would like to impart to the forum an extract from the Road Death Investigation Manual;- Corporate Liability "Criminal offences may be committed not only by an individual, but also by companies. Under the law, a corporation is defined as a legal person and may therefore be criminally liable for strict liability offences. In any investigation of road death the Senior Investigating Officer (SIO) should consider where any alledged liability or culpability for the death may lie. There will be occassions when it is apparent that working regimes, illegal or dangerous practices or negligence have contributed to the death. It will be during the investigation that an SIO may consider liability in respect of corporate bodies and/or personal liabilities of officers within those bodies. The investigation of corporate liability will not be limited to the investigations of commercial concerns but will include any organisation where there exists an employer/employee relationship and where a 'duty of care' is owed. There is little authority in criminal law on the subject of gross negligence manslaughter. Each case is a question of fact and degree as to whether or not a particular defendany has been negligent to the extent that his negligence has incurred crimminal liability and whether such gross negligence has brought about death. The jury must be satisfied as to this and 'duty of care' is a matter of law for the judge to direct the jury on." Use of Health & Safety Legislation "If an investigation into a road death involves consideration of working practices that appear to be illegal or dangerous, or to have been applied negligently, then the SIO will need to establish an immediate liaison with the HSE." I am not able to post a copy of the Road Death Investigation Manual as it is subject to copyright but copies can be obtained fron the National Operations Faculty at Bramshill.

Posted By Ged I wonder what the group thinks of another possibility. Scenario, you have been working all day for example a 12 hour shift. You are also a member of a voluntary rescue team, mountain, coastguard, retained fireman whatever and you get a call out that in effect means working for say half the night. Next day it is work as usual. If you are paid by the emergency service would they be responsible if you had an accident whilst driving home from the callout or driving to work next day?