Posted By Martin Daly Maybe you should sujest holding this get together in the Irish Republic after the 1st of January 2004 all the above smoking will be illegal. It will be interesting to see how this ban works. Is Mise le Meas Martin Daly

Posted By Ken Taylor Rather than attempting to prove or disprove the practice at previous years Symposia (including referring to refences made on my evaluation sheet), perhaps the organisers will be able to give an assurance with regard to this years event. Of course, it isn't just IOSH that I had in mind when launching this thread. Let's try to make it safe and healthy for us too.

Posted By Jason Gould Im a Smoker and not proud of it. Smokers can have disrespect for other people but most nowadays are trying to appease non smokers in ways that we do use designated areas for smoking. A vast majority ask people if they mind if we light up. Smokers take heed of new no smoking rules in shopping centers bla bla. I get annoyed at the vicious approach some people try to take with regards to smoking it seems as though they have a personal war with it. Safety managers come and work on sites and if there a non smoker they will try to put a total ban on the site. I worked with one after his smart assed total ban we walked round the site checking fire protection and discovered secret smoke areas in unsupervised storage areas. This to me is more of a risk than any passive smoking and in my opinion the prudish safety officer caused that extra risk.(He did not last long) Drunks fight and hurt people but most of us realise we had too much to drink and go home in a taxi before we go to far. Anyway ive had enough blurting on. Whats great about a dimocracy is choise. If a total ban was in force i would choose not to go at all. If smoking was allowed in a designated area you can choose not to go. You may not get there anyway. There are curtious drivers and dangerous drivers using mobile phones being aware of possible radiation risk which like passive smoking is still unproven. So stop mobiles and us so called safety proffessionals that still choose to use them. Get of the hobby horse.

Posted By Paul Adams How dissapointing. I saw this topic appear, chuckled and watched it rapidly moving down the table to the obscurity it deserved. However, too much to expect such a contentious issue to be ignored by all. The only thing required is for all to be considerate of the needs of others?

Posted By Ken Taylor Well, I seem to have rattled a few cages and produced a good number of red herrings on this one. I have no interest in the weight or eating habits of fellow delegates - but then they are not trying to force their food into my mouth. How people drive to an event is not my concern - unless they run me over. Do you see the point? I'm not moaning about other people being smokers but object strongly to them trying to force me to re-smoke their foul, offensive and health-threatening exhaust. One might understand if this was the behaviour of the ignorant but at a health and safety event there is no excuse for the selfish to engage their drug habit at the expense of the health and enjoyment of others and certainly no excuse for organisers to permit them to do so. If we are in this profession because we have some care for others' health and safety, let's treat our colleagues accordingly.

Posted By Geoff Burt Ken I have to agree with Ray and the others on this one. Usually, you and I agree on a pragmatic and practical approach but you seem to have gone astray this time - obviously you feel passionate about it and you 'are' knocking the smokers no matter how much you deny it. What you are talking about - and supporting -is a complete lack of tolerance for others. If you think that walking through some minor smoke cloud is bad for your health you also don't understand what the dangers are - rather like some people view asbestos, it appears to be an emotive rather than a fact based opinion. I certainly hope you won't be drinking alcohol at your next conference - in the UK and around the world it causes far more misery, ill health, poverty, crime and violence than smoking ever will. Trying going to your local town centre on a Saturday night - smoking is a minor irritant compared to what goes on. So lets have an agreement - I'll campaign for no alcohol and you campaign for no smoking at the next gathering. On second thoughts I won't bother going. Geoff

Posted By Dave Wilson Would appear that both sides of the debate are trying to impose their will on the other. What about that smoking is permitted in a designated area away from non smokers or am I being to sensible! maybe legislation could be brought in to make this legally enforcable, especially when they are eating!!!!!!!!

Posted By Ken Taylor For the record, I have no objection to people smoking in the open air or in sensibly-designed smoking rooms - in fact, I have been instrumental in planning and providing a number of these. When seeking social activity in an enclosed environment or a restaurant/pub I will choose to visit those with a no-smoking room/area - but when it comes to health and safety events, I would have expected organisers to have banned smoking indoors by now. Yes, I have taken this up with IOSH but do feel it worth raising the matter in the wider context on this forum - which, I understand, is here to enable us to discuss matters of health and safety. Smoking puts people at risk of lung cancer, coronary heart disease, chronic bronchitis, emphysema, other circulatory and respiratory diseases along with acute irritant effects on eyes, throat and respiratory tract and can particularly be a problem for those of us with asthmatic conditions. With regard to this years Public Services Symposium, I see that, once again, smoking will not be permitted in the lecture theatre and foyer and during dinner, presentations and speeches. IOSH are probably better than many others in this respect but, to my mind, not yet good enough and I shall await the day when they provide a separate smoking room and enable the rest of us to have smoke-free air in all non-residential rooms. Tolerance and respect for others health, safety and enjoyment can work well together. I hope you do decide to come to York this year, Geoff and should be happy to have a drink with you - unless the smoking has started!

Posted By Ken Taylor - but not as much fun, Geoff. It's interesting that a plea to breathe smoke-free air at a health and safety event raises issues about overweight, fatty food, alcohol, dangerous drivers, speed-limits,use of mobile phones and removal of jackets and I am accused of being inconsiderate, intolerant, forcing my views on others and being a potentially bad politician. Just hope that I don't enter politics when I retire from health and safety (or get thrown out of IOSH) you lot!

Posted By Bryn Maidment GO GO Ken - I'll vote for you! Ah ! the indignant howls from those weak willed individuals who are hooked to a dried plant leaf and lack the backbone to give it up. "But I enjoy smoking!" yeah right! ..and I like licking the toilet rim every day - it's satisfying, wholesome, agreeable and calms my nerves. The simple fact is that many smokers really don't consider anyone else but themselves when they light up. They are usually the first people at the table to squal if I pick my nose and put it in the ashtray, or have a good scratch of my backside, or break wind. All for freedom of choice, just don't impose your habits on me nor make excuses.

Posted By Geoff Burt Right on Ken, it is fun. Please, please don't go into policics, we've got enough ...... already!!! As for Bryn, I'm lost for words but it must have been you I saw in a restaurant last month. Give me a smoker any time, they've got more conversational skills, a better sense of humour, more social awareness - and that's just me. Geoff

Posted By Gilly Margrave There used to be a "witty" sign in some offices to the effect "I don't mind if you smoke if you don't mind if I break wind" (that wasn't the exact phrasing). As an unreformed and unreformable smoker my response was always "Do you want a light?" Gilly

Posted By Andrew Böber Having read the previous messages of this thread I feel Freud's comment "Manchmal ist eine Zigarre eine Zigarre gerade" is more appropriate.

Posted By Ron Young Ja! das ist gut

Posted By Ian Stone Taking this discussion slightly off track. A friend was hit in his car the other day by a driver who was lighting their fag whilst doing 45mph. Surely that the police enforce that you cant eat, drink or use a mobile whilst driving then smoking should be banned too?

Posted By Ian Stone Surely all those things are natural bodily functions, how often do you see drivers lighting up and taking there eyes off the road, throwing the stubs out the window and missing so it comes back in the car, fiddling for the packets etec etc

Posted By Dave Wilson How did we get from smoking at conference to battering kids in cars? starightening your tie / putting on make up / combing hair / checking Golf Planner behind visor apparently!!! Sat in my car two year ago at 'ASDA' traffic lights, Plymouth (Ian knows) looked in reav view mirror says to wife hang on we are going to get hit! In mirror nobody behind the wheel of a car behind us, suddenly head pops up, bloke had dropped his fag and was bending over in passenger sside to pick it up, when he sat back up only had about 20 feet to stop and he did but it was may boot that stopped him. Ensured he was and my family were OK and he gave me his name, address, ins details even took reg of car - all false!!!!! If you are ever in accident and no one is hurt call the police and dont move anything!!!!

Posted By Ken Taylor Sorry Bryn. It's a translation thing (for 'insult' read 'offend') taking into account the list of obnoxious pastimes you presented - all comparable with smoking of course! Please don't practice any at IOSH events either (with the exception of lavatory-licking, if in private).

Posted By Alan Bate Ken, Well done on insiting such response!! I am 100% behind you with this. I do not have any qualms with the fact that people smoke, it's when they smoke in places that I get exposed to the toxic fumes bein emitted from their lungs that I give a toss. It's disgusting having to go home, smelling of sickening smoke. Fair enough sayiong if I don't like it to stay clear, but why should I have to stay from the pub due to someone else's addiction? Being in restauurants is the same. I'm there for a meal, and don't want to inhale your second hand tar extract. And on the bus. why must I stay away from the bus because other people want to smoke? Ban all smoking in public places is what I say, and ban it from the inside of all Health and Safety events. Set an example. After all, what difference is there to walking around with a cigarette to walking around in an environment full of inhalable silica dust with no mask on? Doesn't give out the right lead to follow does it? Now get off your high horses and accept that smoking is not purely one person's enjoyment, harmles to others, but a toxic, lethal cocktail that kills hundreds of thousands each year and costs the country billions in medical care each year (mind you, I choose to ignore tha fact that most of the tax on a packet of cigarettes funds the NHS - I mean, that would cloud my argument a bit wouldn't it?). Have fun!

Posted By Bryn Maidment Well said, but if you're from the Senior Service you will obviously have an extra edge! What with banning cigarettes, mentioning motorcycles, banning cars (and children in cars) and now applauding the Armed Forces (particularly the RN) how long will it be before Trebor gets off the fence?