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#1 Posted : 06 August 2003 14:51:00(UTC)
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Posted By harry charles shaw
Without being disrespectful, its a fact of life you go through school with not a care in the world, no respect for teachers school rules and restraints are there to abuse, exams are a joke you just carnt wait to leave because when all else fails your always guaranteed a job on the sites
After 2/3 weeks of finding your feet youve suddenly blossomend into this rough, tough talking construction worker whos doing a real mans job whereby the dirtier you come home from work and into the pub the more admiration you get from your mates You exchange the weeks exploits on site. The more dangerous the situation the higher the regard, any injuries are treated as trophies.This was myself looking back to the seventies. After leaving work last Friday I called in for a pint at my local,not much changed !I believe that training is one of the answers in order to change these attitudes and beliefs good sound proper training thats appropriate,accessable and affordable
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#2 Posted : 06 August 2003 15:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Des Daly
Could not agree more with you Harry. Only this afternoon I was banging on about the same subject matter. I work in a construction environment and am fed up with the macho culture that dominates the whole industry. I deliver tool box talks and recognise the general 'could not give a monkey about you' look on the faces of the those using my tool box as a means of dodging work. I carry out site visits and witness dangerous at risk behaviour that is considered normal by the whole site ( including managers, supervisers, foreman and gangers. I do not understood the rationale to take your life into your hands on behalf of an employer. I wonder what the true cost of construction would be if the work was carried out safely - who benefits from the macho culture
It is clear that a 'tight rope syndrome' best describes these ignorant and stupid people, whereby working dangerously provides an element of interest and excitement to a pretty mundane, boring and low skilled existence.
I despair. I do not see any means or will to changing the way the industry conducts itself..
Sitting here on this hot afternoon I recall the words of Nietzche:
" If you gaze long into the abyss, the
abyss gazes also into you"

I am afraid there is no hope - get out of the industry.
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#3 Posted : 06 August 2003 15:50:00(UTC)
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Posted By john ridley
Oh we are having a bad day aren't we? Do you really think this is only applicable to construction. I work in an organisation where first aiders fail to respond to a first aid incident call outs, people who don't report major fires that threaten whole buildings and first aid boxes that were found to be full of boiled rice only, and you think you've got problems. Come on and get a grip and look on the bright side; you are sitting in the sunshine I presume with suitable skin protection against cancer, hard hat protection from falling objects such as Russian trapeze artists, suitable protective boots that probably give you a fungal infection, and a hi vis vest that is covered in flies. But hey! every cloud has a silver lining, and I presume you are getting paid to do your tool box talks so why care about its effect? Deliver them and move on unless you can think of a better way of generating an interest.

If you really want to have an effect take off your anorak get into the bar with the lads after work on the Friday after payday, identify the ring leaders who can help you and talk to them. Generate some pay-back for them to take notice of you even if it generated by beer bought from the money in your own pockets. If not, live with it. If the roles were reversed would you take any notice of the hardhat, hi-vis, safety booted H&S adviser at a tool box talk. I wouldn't and I'm that professional.

No offence intended...........
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#4 Posted : 06 August 2003 16:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By harry charles shaw
Hi Des
Thanks for the quick reply Dont despair Des there is light at the end of the tunnel Ive seen those same faces in the tool box talks and inductions but we,ve got to make allowences by focusing on those who seem to have this gung ho attitude im sure in time attitutes on site will eventually change
By making these guys feel as if they are appart of a team, treat people with respect ie provision of first class welfare faccilities not some stinking porta-loo which gets emptied only when it starts to over flow. Encouragement goes a long way , management/ safety managers seem to go out of there way to chastise workers. When was the last time you heard a manager say "Its good to see you wearing your harness and hooked on, put an extra hour on your time sheet." Wow how would that guy feel not only has he been recognised by his peers he,s also been rewarded. How fast would that get around site?
ps whos Niechzt
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#5 Posted : 06 August 2003 17:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Merv Newman
Good God, and it's not even friday.

Having worked for a while in the usa, I think that there has been a culture change in the last 10 or 15 years - anyone remember stories of american indians working on sky scraper construction - no fear of heights, happy to walk along a six inch girder at 500 feet - that was a macho culture. No one wore a harness or a hard hat, because they were tough, scared of nothing. (there's not a lot of people like that left today)

Nowadays, the hard hat is worn - on the job, in the street, in the car, to go shopping and in the bar. Why ? To show that the wearer is a tough, capable, responsible person, who knows how to take care of himself in dangerous situations. Just like the Marines.

How did that come about - carrot and stick.

1. no ppe = no job (a phrase used in this forum a day or two ago)

2. good ppe = recognition and approval.

(2) is the most difficult route. Kicking ass is easy, and it makes us feel SO much better. But we all find it very hard to recognise and reward good behaviour. When was the last time YOUR boss said "You did good - lets go and have a coffee together" ?

Behavioural Based Safety in construction ? I do it all the time, because I know it works.

Merv Newman
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#6 Posted : 07 August 2003 12:31:00(UTC)
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Posted By David Brede
At a construction site last week I came across 6 people, 4 eating salad or similar health food, one had a sandwich and one had a pie and that was the Contract Manager!

I am with Merv that you have to treat any workers right if you want any changes.

When I first did site visits it was treated as invasive surgery by the site team especially the foreman. Now as I park up the kettle is put on! This is not by being kind to them but treating them as professionals and pointing out good practice as well as bad and being prepared to defend them against poor management or if we as client are trying to cut corners or whatever.

Times they are a changin.... I think I have heard that before.


David
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#7 Posted : 07 August 2003 12:39:00(UTC)
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Posted By Des Daly
Harry,

For your information, and as you have asked, Freidrich Wilhelm Nietzsche was a German philospher and poet and is best know for his fundamental contention that traditional values ( primarily christianity) had lost their power in the lives of individuals. He expressed his proclamation that ' God is Dead' to a shocked World.

I think that during these hard - selfish,nosed days of de-industrialisation something that has bound people together, be it judeo-christain morality or societal restraints has gone. Look at the number of people that habitually jump red lights. There I go again rioll on the weekend.

Cheers,

Des Daly
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#8 Posted : 07 August 2003 13:26:00(UTC)
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Posted By Zoe Barnett
I'm probably going to sound like a retired colonel in Tunbridge Wells, but I think the problem goes even deeper than the safety issues, important though they are. Attitudes like those you describe are symptomatic of the way in which we are encouraged to think more about "rights" than about "responsibilities".

It's down to us to try to break this thought cycle and this begins at home. My son insisted on fiddling with the flap on a drinks machine at our local swimming pool despite being told several times not to. Needless to say he ended up getting his fingers pinched (I'd better say here he wasn't at all hurt). My response was to tell him it served him right and that if he'd done as he was told it wouldn't have happened. Other families around were horrified at my attitude. If this is the prevaling trend amongst parents, is it any wonder that young people are growing up with no sense of taking charge of their own safety?

Maybe this is the sort of thing that should be covered in the Citizenship curriculum at school. We need to catch 'em young, rather than wait till they are 16, think they are immortal, and that if they're not it's someone else's fault.
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#9 Posted : 07 August 2003 13:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ken Taylor
Take heart, Des. Nietzsche is dead and Judeo-Christianity is still with us.

As one who went to school in the 50s, it was nice to see the programme on Channel 4 the other evening where a bunch of today's kids were separated from their designer clothing and modern trappings and put through a 1950s style schooling complete with sensible uniforms, enforced manners and cold showers. Those who also watched will have seen their miserable performance in an 11 plus maths paper without benefit of calculator. It certainly brought back some happy memories, Zoe - although our independent schools do seem to retain something of the good behavioural standards in class when compared with many modern state-sector schools (of which I also have some years of experience). Society certainly needs to get back on a more caring and respecting track as well as the Construction fraternity.

I've just come back from having a go at some contract glaziers who left chisels, hammers, broken glass and a Stanley knife unattended in a playground used by a special needs summer project. 'Just didn't think about it' seemed to be the reason.
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#10 Posted : 08 August 2003 10:18:00(UTC)
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Posted By Des Daly
It seems that there a clear divide between the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade and let's start the day with a group hug and a discussion on what the big old nasty world has done to you.

I'm for getting off the fence - hang 'em and flog 'em I say. Are you with me?
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#11 Posted : 08 August 2003 10:38:00(UTC)
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Posted By Jonathan Breeze
Des,

The thread was about machoism (i.e. machismo), not masochism which is whole different ball game.

Although who you hang & flog in your spare time is nothing to do with me as long as it is between consenting adults!

Jon
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#12 Posted : 08 August 2003 15:41:00(UTC)
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Posted By Merv Newman
Rewards vs punishment or hanging and flogging vs a warm hug ?

As I said earlier in this thread, the "rewards for getting it right" method is very hard to get over to site managers. (don't worry, I dont entirely rule out a light flogging from time to time)

About a month ago I visited a large car plant. The manager showing me round took a couple of occasions to "contact" workers who did not have correct ppe. He did it in a friendly and caring way.

At no time did he "contact" workers who were "all correct".

It seems that he believed that, as they were doing what was required of them, there was nothing further to say.

I strongly disagree. The "bad" worker benefited from a warm, friendly contact with his manager. Maybe if he continues in the same way he will continue to obtain warm, friendly contacts (hugs)

The "good" workers obtained nothing as a result of their good behaviour. No reward, no reinforcement. All they get, apart from the intangible of a reduce accident probability, is the discomfort of wearing ppe. (equivalent to a very light flogging as all of us who have worn ppe for any length of time will agree)

So, hugging is good, flogging is good (I exclude hanging for most workplace offences), but let's get things the right way around. Good behaviour needs reinforcing and rewarding, with a hug, a smile, a "well done" or a cup of coffee.

Even on construction sites, and especially with children. Hi Zoe

Merv Newman
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#13 Posted : 08 August 2003 15:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By Zoe Barnett
Hear hear Merv!

I recall reading something about Neuro-Linguistic Programming that said similar things. I can't pretend to know much about NLP (I can barely spell it) but the article pointed out that management reactions shape culture just as much, if not more, than formal policies and procedures. For example, a manager who will stand and have a friendly chat next to someone not wearing PPE will be sending a silent message that it's okay not to wear it - because he doesn't say anything, he (or she) is giving tacit approval. We all use that excuse - "You never told me not to". (As in "you never told me not to spend all afternoon in the IOSH chat room").


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#14 Posted : 08 August 2003 16:39:00(UTC)
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Posted By Des Daly
Merv,
I do like your calming and wise words and I have no doubt that there really is something in taking an interest in the workers (Elton Mayo and Hawthorne experiment etc.). However, respect is reciprocal and although I am careful to avoid using confrontational words or appearing to be condescending it seems that 'safety' is equated with control and many of those working in the scaffolding industry do so precisely for the loose controls and because they like the freedom it affords them. Therefore control and a controller become anathema in their world view. Although my contribution to the Thread has been somewhat tongue in cheek, I should say that I feel that our approach to date has failed to improve things. Whether or not the social transmission of attitudes and beliefs, that are in contradiction to the objectives of an organisation ( morally, legally and economically), can be prevented through behaviour based approach to safety or buying in the workers I am not sure. What I do feel, however, is that the boom and bust cycle of construction and the whole procurement process ( cheapest quote etc) needs to be re-thought.
It is also hard to empathise with some people who wait until you are on site and out of sight then damage your new car ( not a company car I should add).It is hard to empathise with people who do not respond to rational argument.

But it is Friday and the weekend calls - time to hang up that bruised and tattered anorak and clipboard and enjoy a quiet pint in the garden - Phew! What a week.

Des Daly

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#15 Posted : 08 August 2003 17:47:00(UTC)
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Posted By Merv Newman
Des,

it is precisely because the old way (hanging and flogging) is so inefficient that I advocate recognition, reinforcement and reward.

I "grew up" in the traditional safety culture. Unsafe acts and unsafe conditions were the be all and end all of safety audits - managers/supervisors go look for someone getting it wrong and correct them.

It works, it is simple to learn and understand, but it takes an enormous investment in mgmt/sup. time and effort. And has been called the "fear culture".

But has anyone ever tried a "Be positive" safety audit ?

When I go to a site, or a factory, I ask about the positives - what have you done that works, any successes ? Is there any way I can help you to do even better ? I ask who are the best workers or contractors, or supervisors ? What can we do to show that we appreciate what they are doing well ?

As for the workers I talk with, for good participation, good behaviour etc. I buy the teas or coffees. For construction sites I have a jar of nescafé in the car. For factories I feed the coffee machine. Can cost me a fortune over a few weeks.

RRR safety. Recognise, Reward, Reinforce.

You know it makes sense.

The "negatives" are not forgotten, but I ALWAYS start with the positives.

Hey Des, I know it is Friday, but it isn't quite midnight - keep burning the oil.

Best regards

Merv
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#16 Posted : 08 August 2003 20:32:00(UTC)
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Posted By Steve Sedgwick
I do agree with a lot that has been said earlier such as chatting to the workforce, even having a beer with them on Friday evening, or congratulating them on their HS performance or standards. But we must focus on the real failings, the root cause of the situation “Management Commitment”.

I would take a different approach to the one that most here are proposing.

As a HS Practioner we cannot achieve very much by walking on to site and challenge each person not wearing the correct PPE, this is not effective and wastes time. Tackle the supervisor and the manager, and make sure that their bosses are aware of the issues. When they start to feel the pain they will make the step change.

The problem we have with our workers not following rules and procedures is not their fault, if we do a root cause analysis on non compliances, or accidents, it will tell us that it’s a Management failure in most cases.

Management make and write the rules by which they want employees to follow and in many instances the management dictating these rules have no intension of making sure they are applied.

Sometimes the rule is written because management simply thinks that they ought to.
Sometimes because they think it covers them should something go wrong? “Paper is not adequate for protecting ones back, it needs action”
Sometimes because someone tells them that they must.

How many rules are written with the full intension of punishing people who fail to follow it ?.

We must let people know that we serious about the rules we establish. There are too many Managers, Supervisors and others willing to turn the old Nelsonion eye for an easy life.

If people seriously can not operate with the rules satisfactorily then fine, lets review the rule and try to find something more practical but without compromising health and safety. Rules do not need to be cast in concrete, things change and we sometimes have to modify the rules.

We cannot concentrate on other behavioral safety programs until we have the foundations in place “Management Commitment”.

I have an old saying, which I relate to Managers at every opportunity “You only get the standards (or compliance) that you are prepared to accept”.

Regards
Steve
PS
What prevents speeding more than anything else ? “Speed Cameras” They follow the rules consistently, they never turn a blind eye, and everyone knows that.

Now I am going for a few pints. Have a good weekend all.
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#17 Posted : 08 August 2003 20:53:00(UTC)
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Posted By David Brede
Following on from Steves message, taking root cause analysis to the nth degree, is why I believe that safety culture is a offshoot of organisational culture so if that is poor then we have little chance
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#18 Posted : 09 August 2003 07:19:00(UTC)
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Posted By Merv Newman
I fully agree with the last two postings - root causes of accidents are management failures. And we need to change the safety culture. Safety should be something every one wants to have, they should like/prefer to work safely and they should actively seek safe ways of working because it is a good (even fun)thing to do.

This said, the safety professional has an enormous role in facilitating this change in safety culture. Our own approach should be positive; encouraging positive initiatives and constructively helping and advising managers and workers in doing their jobs.

In addition to knowing and advising on the legislation, acops and so on, we can look at how to just encourage people to work safely.

Some industrial cultures are getting there, seeing the value of safety and using a variety of methods to change their internal cultures. Others have a long long way to go. We do have the tools, but do we have the ressources and opportunities we need to use those tools effectively ? Not often enough.

It's a dirty job, aren't you just glad that your the one doing it ?

Merv
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#19 Posted : 09 August 2003 15:55:00(UTC)
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Posted By David Brede
Merv,

I think that this is the fascinating part of it, how by taking action at the safety corner you can turn the whole ship.

It is going to be interesting in the rail industry, how the appearance in court of the personnel involved in the Hatfield disaster will focus the minds of everyone else.

It was suggested to me the other day that the severe reaction to the high summmer temperatures by reducing train speeds was due to a no risks whatsoever culture emerging.

David
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#20 Posted : 11 August 2003 10:42:00(UTC)
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Posted By Des Daly
Dear Colonel (rtd.) Zoe of Tunbridge,
Reading through the discussion on 'machoism in construction' your contribution caught my eye. It seems that you outraged other parents when you adopted a 'told you so' attitude when your son caught his fingers in the drinks machine ( presumably you had told him not to put them there in the first place).
Your son probably will not do that again and he will have a learned a lesson - not a hard lesson mind you, but a valuable leson none the less. He will have discovered the dangers of putting fingers into machines.
The difficulty we have with this concept of 'lassiez faire' is that it is culturally determined, for example, many African children are left to learn about the dangers of the world for themselves - they climb trees to great heights, disturb bees and wasps etc and 'learn' that any consequences result from their action. These children grow up to be wise and confident and responsible members of a community.
For our kossetted kids,it is the paranoia of the parents that prevents them from learning for themselves ( growing up wise/confident and responsible). What happens when parental influence weakens or suddenly stops ( going to university perhaps). How do these once overly protected people learn to be responsibile for their own actions? In seeking to protect we are in fact checking the development of them as responsible and rational people. Is it no wonder when 'little johnny' arrives on the site he wants to show off - be macho - get dirty - perhaps dice with death - AND learn all about himself. Of course I do not advocate children playing near to roads or railways, but I believe that there must be a gradual development of their self -confidence. As parent we need to know when to step in and re-take control, but to protect against everything at all times merely creates adults without the necessary skills to become good citizens.
Good topic.
Anyway time for tiffin,

Des Daly
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#21 Posted : 11 August 2003 17:16:00(UTC)
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Posted By Merv Newman
Des,

a bit of perspective please. Large numbers of african children seem to be ending up involved in civil war, playing with or on the receiving end of kalashnikovs or machetés.

I understand that this rarely happens in the uk.

A major part of parental responsibility, exercised or not, is allowing/leading/teaching our children to grow, to become adult and to , eventually take responsibility for their own lives, including their health and safety. Some parents do this better than others. Some children do this better than others.

The safety professional is not "in loco parentis" but a major part of our responsibility is helping our colleagues to take responsibility (in addition to management's responsibility) for their health and safety.

In this way we are, in part, trying to compensate for problems not of our making.

God, we are getting philosophical. Any one for HSE as social engineering ?

Merv
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#22 Posted : 12 August 2003 13:17:00(UTC)
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Posted By Ken Lucas
Read this thread with interest and was a bit shocked to read the responses from Harry and Des, yet I can now understand their frustrations.

Just having a bite of lunch (OK some of us get the chance you know) and reading the BBC website - breaking news states that the CITB is launching a UK wide recruitmnet drive within the construction industry as there is expected massive growth in the next few years - the A-Z index on the CITB website linked from the news item, provides details on 59 occupations. However this list doesn't appear to include any for OS&H or Env' roles. Hmmmmmm!

So it is understandable that OS&H practitioners in some cases, find themselves and the role undermined and that there is a "machoism" feel in the workplace.

Maybe OS&H and Env are part of another persons role, e.g. Site Planner, Site Engineer or are OS&H roles filled differently in the construction industry?
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