Posted By Des Daly Could not agree more with you Harry. Only this afternoon I was banging on about the same subject matter. I work in a construction environment and am fed up with the macho culture that dominates the whole industry. I deliver tool box talks and recognise the general 'could not give a monkey about you' look on the faces of the those using my tool box as a means of dodging work. I carry out site visits and witness dangerous at risk behaviour that is considered normal by the whole site ( including managers, supervisers, foreman and gangers. I do not understood the rationale to take your life into your hands on behalf of an employer. I wonder what the true cost of construction would be if the work was carried out safely - who benefits from the macho culture It is clear that a 'tight rope syndrome' best describes these ignorant and stupid people, whereby working dangerously provides an element of interest and excitement to a pretty mundane, boring and low skilled existence. I despair. I do not see any means or will to changing the way the industry conducts itself.. Sitting here on this hot afternoon I recall the words of Nietzche: " If you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you" I am afraid there is no hope - get out of the industry.

Posted By harry charles shaw Hi Des Thanks for the quick reply Dont despair Des there is light at the end of the tunnel Ive seen those same faces in the tool box talks and inductions but we,ve got to make allowences by focusing on those who seem to have this gung ho attitude im sure in time attitutes on site will eventually change By making these guys feel as if they are appart of a team, treat people with respect ie provision of first class welfare faccilities not some stinking porta-loo which gets emptied only when it starts to over flow. Encouragement goes a long way , management/ safety managers seem to go out of there way to chastise workers. When was the last time you heard a manager say "Its good to see you wearing your harness and hooked on, put an extra hour on your time sheet." Wow how would that guy feel not only has he been recognised by his peers he,s also been rewarded. How fast would that get around site? ps whos Niechzt

Posted By David Brede At a construction site last week I came across 6 people, 4 eating salad or similar health food, one had a sandwich and one had a pie and that was the Contract Manager! I am with Merv that you have to treat any workers right if you want any changes. When I first did site visits it was treated as invasive surgery by the site team especially the foreman. Now as I park up the kettle is put on! This is not by being kind to them but treating them as professionals and pointing out good practice as well as bad and being prepared to defend them against poor management or if we as client are trying to cut corners or whatever. Times they are a changin.... I think I have heard that before. David

Posted By Zoe Barnett I'm probably going to sound like a retired colonel in Tunbridge Wells, but I think the problem goes even deeper than the safety issues, important though they are. Attitudes like those you describe are symptomatic of the way in which we are encouraged to think more about "rights" than about "responsibilities". It's down to us to try to break this thought cycle and this begins at home. My son insisted on fiddling with the flap on a drinks machine at our local swimming pool despite being told several times not to. Needless to say he ended up getting his fingers pinched (I'd better say here he wasn't at all hurt). My response was to tell him it served him right and that if he'd done as he was told it wouldn't have happened. Other families around were horrified at my attitude. If this is the prevaling trend amongst parents, is it any wonder that young people are growing up with no sense of taking charge of their own safety? Maybe this is the sort of thing that should be covered in the Citizenship curriculum at school. We need to catch 'em young, rather than wait till they are 16, think they are immortal, and that if they're not it's someone else's fault.

Posted By Des Daly It seems that there a clear divide between the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade and let's start the day with a group hug and a discussion on what the big old nasty world has done to you. I'm for getting off the fence - hang 'em and flog 'em I say. Are you with me?

Posted By Merv Newman Rewards vs punishment or hanging and flogging vs a warm hug ? As I said earlier in this thread, the "rewards for getting it right" method is very hard to get over to site managers. (don't worry, I dont entirely rule out a light flogging from time to time) About a month ago I visited a large car plant. The manager showing me round took a couple of occasions to "contact" workers who did not have correct ppe. He did it in a friendly and caring way. At no time did he "contact" workers who were "all correct". It seems that he believed that, as they were doing what was required of them, there was nothing further to say. I strongly disagree. The "bad" worker benefited from a warm, friendly contact with his manager. Maybe if he continues in the same way he will continue to obtain warm, friendly contacts (hugs) The "good" workers obtained nothing as a result of their good behaviour. No reward, no reinforcement. All they get, apart from the intangible of a reduce accident probability, is the discomfort of wearing ppe. (equivalent to a very light flogging as all of us who have worn ppe for any length of time will agree) So, hugging is good, flogging is good (I exclude hanging for most workplace offences), but let's get things the right way around. Good behaviour needs reinforcing and rewarding, with a hug, a smile, a "well done" or a cup of coffee. Even on construction sites, and especially with children. Hi Zoe Merv Newman

Posted By Des Daly Merv, I do like your calming and wise words and I have no doubt that there really is something in taking an interest in the workers (Elton Mayo and Hawthorne experiment etc.). However, respect is reciprocal and although I am careful to avoid using confrontational words or appearing to be condescending it seems that 'safety' is equated with control and many of those working in the scaffolding industry do so precisely for the loose controls and because they like the freedom it affords them. Therefore control and a controller become anathema in their world view. Although my contribution to the Thread has been somewhat tongue in cheek, I should say that I feel that our approach to date has failed to improve things. Whether or not the social transmission of attitudes and beliefs, that are in contradiction to the objectives of an organisation ( morally, legally and economically), can be prevented through behaviour based approach to safety or buying in the workers I am not sure. What I do feel, however, is that the boom and bust cycle of construction and the whole procurement process ( cheapest quote etc) needs to be re-thought. It is also hard to empathise with some people who wait until you are on site and out of sight then damage your new car ( not a company car I should add).It is hard to empathise with people who do not respond to rational argument. But it is Friday and the weekend calls - time to hang up that bruised and tattered anorak and clipboard and enjoy a quiet pint in the garden - Phew! What a week. Des Daly

Posted By Steve Sedgwick I do agree with a lot that has been said earlier such as chatting to the workforce, even having a beer with them on Friday evening, or congratulating them on their HS performance or standards. But we must focus on the real failings, the root cause of the situation “Management Commitment”. I would take a different approach to the one that most here are proposing. As a HS Practioner we cannot achieve very much by walking on to site and challenge each person not wearing the correct PPE, this is not effective and wastes time. Tackle the supervisor and the manager, and make sure that their bosses are aware of the issues. When they start to feel the pain they will make the step change. The problem we have with our workers not following rules and procedures is not their fault, if we do a root cause analysis on non compliances, or accidents, it will tell us that it’s a Management failure in most cases. Management make and write the rules by which they want employees to follow and in many instances the management dictating these rules have no intension of making sure they are applied. Sometimes the rule is written because management simply thinks that they ought to. Sometimes because they think it covers them should something go wrong? “Paper is not adequate for protecting ones back, it needs action” Sometimes because someone tells them that they must. How many rules are written with the full intension of punishing people who fail to follow it ?. We must let people know that we serious about the rules we establish. There are too many Managers, Supervisors and others willing to turn the old Nelsonion eye for an easy life. If people seriously can not operate with the rules satisfactorily then fine, lets review the rule and try to find something more practical but without compromising health and safety. Rules do not need to be cast in concrete, things change and we sometimes have to modify the rules. We cannot concentrate on other behavioral safety programs until we have the foundations in place “Management Commitment”. I have an old saying, which I relate to Managers at every opportunity “You only get the standards (or compliance) that you are prepared to accept”. Regards Steve PS What prevents speeding more than anything else ? “Speed Cameras” They follow the rules consistently, they never turn a blind eye, and everyone knows that. Now I am going for a few pints. Have a good weekend all.

Posted By Merv Newman I fully agree with the last two postings - root causes of accidents are management failures. And we need to change the safety culture. Safety should be something every one wants to have, they should like/prefer to work safely and they should actively seek safe ways of working because it is a good (even fun)thing to do. This said, the safety professional has an enormous role in facilitating this change in safety culture. Our own approach should be positive; encouraging positive initiatives and constructively helping and advising managers and workers in doing their jobs. In addition to knowing and advising on the legislation, acops and so on, we can look at how to just encourage people to work safely. Some industrial cultures are getting there, seeing the value of safety and using a variety of methods to change their internal cultures. Others have a long long way to go. We do have the tools, but do we have the ressources and opportunities we need to use those tools effectively ? Not often enough. It's a dirty job, aren't you just glad that your the one doing it ? Merv

Posted By Des Daly Dear Colonel (rtd.) Zoe of Tunbridge, Reading through the discussion on 'machoism in construction' your contribution caught my eye. It seems that you outraged other parents when you adopted a 'told you so' attitude when your son caught his fingers in the drinks machine ( presumably you had told him not to put them there in the first place). Your son probably will not do that again and he will have a learned a lesson - not a hard lesson mind you, but a valuable leson none the less. He will have discovered the dangers of putting fingers into machines. The difficulty we have with this concept of 'lassiez faire' is that it is culturally determined, for example, many African children are left to learn about the dangers of the world for themselves - they climb trees to great heights, disturb bees and wasps etc and 'learn' that any consequences result from their action. These children grow up to be wise and confident and responsible members of a community. For our kossetted kids,it is the paranoia of the parents that prevents them from learning for themselves ( growing up wise/confident and responsible). What happens when parental influence weakens or suddenly stops ( going to university perhaps). How do these once overly protected people learn to be responsibile for their own actions? In seeking to protect we are in fact checking the development of them as responsible and rational people. Is it no wonder when 'little johnny' arrives on the site he wants to show off - be macho - get dirty - perhaps dice with death - AND learn all about himself. Of course I do not advocate children playing near to roads or railways, but I believe that there must be a gradual development of their self -confidence. As parent we need to know when to step in and re-take control, but to protect against everything at all times merely creates adults without the necessary skills to become good citizens. Good topic. Anyway time for tiffin, Des Daly

Posted By Ken Lucas Read this thread with interest and was a bit shocked to read the responses from Harry and Des, yet I can now understand their frustrations. Just having a bite of lunch (OK some of us get the chance you know) and reading the BBC website - breaking news states that the CITB is launching a UK wide recruitmnet drive within the construction industry as there is expected massive growth in the next few years - the A-Z index on the CITB website linked from the news item, provides details on 59 occupations. However this list doesn't appear to include any for OS&H or Env' roles. Hmmmmmm! So it is understandable that OS&H practitioners in some cases, find themselves and the role undermined and that there is a "machoism" feel in the workplace. Maybe OS&H and Env are part of another persons role, e.g. Site Planner, Site Engineer or are OS&H roles filled differently in the construction industry?