Posted By Andrew I. Butler Good morning all, Can anyone throw any light on this subject? Is the title of fire safety coordinator something that has been designed out of best practice or is there a true definition with roles and responsibilities clearly defined? Thank you for your support Andy

Posted By Andrew I. Butler My question has been generated as a result of Audit from the British Safety council. One of the questions within the audit questions the appointment of a Fire Safety Coordinator. It is my belief that this is a requirement of best practice rather than anything legal as I cannot find any information to support this. I have attached the exact text of the question for some further clarification. 3.11 FIRE SAFETY CO-ORDINATOR Has a Fire Safety Co-ordinator been formally appointed? Do they hold recognised qualifications and/or have they undergone an accredited training programme? Have their duties and responsibilities been formally set out in the company health and safety arrangements? Are senior management appraised on matters of fire safety at regular intervals and as necessary? Is this process formalised in the health and safety arrangements and subject to regular review?

Posted By Sean Fraser I find the issue of training with regard to fire-fighting quite a contentious one. Just to put it into perspective - our office is mostly made up of staff who operate in the UK offshore environment and as a result, have received what is termed BOSIET - Basic Offshore Safety and Induction Emergency Training, part of which involves use of extinguishers. As a result, we have determined that we don't need to train onshore personnel as in the unlikely event of fire breaking out, there are people capable of using the equipment through actual practice, not just in theory. However, the general instruction on land is to evacuate - don't use the extinguishers, don't pass go and don't collect £200. From an insurance point of view (as I understand it), it is cheaper to replace materiel and buildings than compensate for severe injury or loss of life. Basically, the intention is NOT to encourage people to enter a danger area, regardless of whether they are armed with a fire extinguisher or not - get 'em out instead and leave it to the professionals when they arrive. Extinguishers are there to fight a small fire - someone want to define what that is please? It takes less than 2 minutes for a fire to reach flash-over and engulf a room - you might not have the time to assess and fight the fire before that and you shouldn't be encouraged to even try, especially if you don't knwo exactly where the fire is when the alarm goes off - don't go looking for trouble. The default should be to evacuate first - only attempt to fight it if you are absolutely SURE it can be controlled (perhaps a bin fire that isn't next to flammable materials). Again, the Regulations have been worded where you, as the employer, decides what is appropriate for your organisation. If you decide that the potentiual harm to your staff while attempting to fight any outbreak of fire is too great (as we have), then you should not be criticised if you don't train them to use extinguishers but instead train (and test) them to evacuate immediately the alarm sounds. After all, the Regulations are there to save life first, property second. Not the other way round. I am keen to hear the viewpoints of others on this - I am open to persuasion!

Posted By Jason Gould I think when large organisations who have a lot of people on site i.e. hospitals large chemical works etc make emergency plans some of which are required by law if not all. (comar). These companies usually understand that in event of fires procedures i.e shutting down power supplies, opening sprinkler pumps etc and someone to meet meet the fire brigade with an overview of current situation and any relevent details that would be of use to all emergency services. In these circumstances they feel better to appoint someone for the role to oversee the training of fire marshals, escape plans etc. One company I worked for appointed the maintenance manager for this role and was asked the question "what would happen if he was caught up in the disaster?". At this point we refreshed the policy where as the safety manager, security manager and maintenance team all had copy of procedures. So all I can see is that the BSC question would be aimed at companies that would be faced with similar situations. With referance to having trained fire staff I remember a situation involving some aresols being left on a flat roof in the sun. One had a funny reaction (sizzling bubbling etc) the 6 lads had just watched in amazement before one lad who was trained in a previous job put it out with fire extinguisher. Their comments afterwards was "we didnt know what to do or which extinguisher to use" That sitution could have resulted in a fatality. There was no fire so evacuation was not suitable but the situation would have developed into a fire if not dealt with properply. So i feel everbody should have the training to use a fire extinguisher but agree that it should be properply clarrified at which events people should attempt to deal with and what ones are best left to the proffesionals.

Posted By Ken Taylor Sean, the long-quoted 'definition' of a 'small fire' which trained staff might be able to extinguish is 'about the size of a waste paper bin on fire'. Fire training usually says something like 'you may fight a small fire but only if safe to do so' and good training will include the hazards from smoke, compressed gases, flash-overs and the like - whilst emphasising the need to 'get out and get the Fire Brigade out'. However, individual fire situations may call for the use of extinguishers or fire-blankets where there is an immediate fire risk to persons or to enable escape to be carried out. I believe, therefore that training should include fire safety, fire prevention, fire protection, fire hazards and risks as well as fire extinguishing. In practice, it is believed that fire brigades attend 1 or 2 out of every 10 fires that start and so someone else is dealing with the other 8 or 9. The loss of life, property and employment that might occur should we always leave it to the fire brigades must, therefore, be worthy of consideration in this discussion. Untrained persons in fire situations may well do the wrong thing (eg put water on burning liquids, carry burning items out of the building or try to fight a fire that is too much for them). Fire information and training are, I believe, important in reducing the risk of fire and enabling survival and reduced loss should it occur.

Posted By Andrew I. Butler Good Morning Thank you all for your contributions to this thread and those who have emailed me direct. Your comments are most appreciated. Andy

Posted By Jason Gould Dave I dont think anyone has said you have to have a fire safety co-ordinator. They are appointed by companies that feel the workload may be too much for a safety manager or maintenance etc. As both you sean and I myself state it is upt the individual companies to act with what ever measures they seem necessary as long as their reasonably practicable. My contention is that basic fire fighting and fire prevention training is reasonably practicable in all workplaces. And at some point sean is right when he states this can cause the potential for more harm than good. I would rather see a hero with basic skills than one without. The get out stay out and ignore everything that is going on around you is not a guarenteed way to prevent the loss of life as neither is the having trained (theory only) people in the building. This is more of a moral debate I think than a legal one. As i suspect either one would be acceptable untill an event happened that contrdicted the reasoning.

Posted By Jason Gould Yes Hilary I somehow knew the nurse situation would blow in my face lol but who said it wasnt just a small bin fire.. Spare of the moment thought I guess. I Totally agree with the way you do things and the get out stay out approach. I am not advocaitng the fighting of fires as that would be foolish and deadly. I am just trying to get accross the exception to the rule. Fires are put out in workplaces by memebres of staff everyday. These staff in the vast majority of cases have had thier company training. Levels of training vary depending on the type of buisness. General training always states the get out stay out principle but some workers will tackle a small fire. Like it has been said before the danger comes in two forms. 1. The worker may make a mistake by tackling a fire with basic knowledge. 2. The worker will may a mistake without basic knowledge. You say Fire extinguisher training is best practice. I say it is good backup Knowledge I just got the feeling that Sean seemed to think it was a waste of rescourses and a greater risk. Let me put the following scenario to you for your thoughts. Baring in mind the fire brigade demonstate this at their open days and the number of advice leaflets out their. 2 weeks ago I was cooking the kids tea. I had chip pan left on with hot oil. Smoke alarm went off in kitchen so i investigated. Their it was a smoking chip pan ready to ignite(not sure if they do). I had earlier in the year watched a demonstraion with the kids at local fire station. So I got damp cloth and smothered pan. After getting everything under control my girlfreind came in to investigat the damage and ear bash me lol. She then went on to say she would have thrown water over the pan. At this point I realise just how as the fire brigade staff stated the lack of knowledge is a very dangerous thing indeed as there was three kids at the kitchen door gawping with amazement. The final desision was Kids told to get out stay out and never attempt such a thing and my missus has read up on on the subject a little. Translate that into a work place. I have worked in many companies as a normal worker for 16 years. I have never had a fire drill and never recieved that basic fire extingusher training. So what is good practice etc for some companies is obviously not for a majority af others. For that reason I do feel strongly when it comes down to what people state are good fire prcedures. Even two nights ago I girlfreind comes home and asks me that her supervisor states the Home in which she works is stupid cos all the fire extinguishers are red. He claimed they were breaking the law. LOL This can go on forever.

Posted By Sean Fraser I'm pleased that I have stirred up some excellent debate on this subject - everyone has been putting in good points on the subject and it is good to know that we continue to put the people before the system and are not just advocating actions without reasonable justifications to back it up. Jason - I actually agree with your points regarding a good level of awareness needs to be maintained over all staff, so they can react appropriately in an emergency situation - any emergency, not just fire although that can be more dramatic than a flood. And we need to be aware that there is another regulatory requirement to bear in mind regarding emergency response, that being the environmental consequences of our actions. My point regarding extinguishers can be easily countered by "If you don't train people to use the extinguishers, then why have them?". Good question - we have them because our old Fire Certificate said we should. But now that we are heading down the risk assessment route and the FC is likely to become a thing of the past, like the Petroleum License that went out with the DSEAR, then would we consider getting rid of all our extinguishers? Not likely! I made mention of the fact that the majority of our staff had received actual fire-fighting training as part of the statutory offshore safety training course. As a result, should a fire break out at our premises, there are people on site who will have had the training to make a reasonable assessment of the situation and address it accordingly - including the decision to evacuate and leave it well alone! Therefore, I agree with the principle that the general level of awareness is raised among all staff - like I've said before, forewarned is forearmed. This awareness should include the fire triangle, the common causes of fire and the potential dangers involved. A good awareness not only allows them to handle an emergency situation should it occur, but generally it will improve behaviours and safety culture overall so the potential for an emergency is significantly reduced. And this was the crux of my point - we need to concentrate more on prevention than precautions, but that doesn't mean we can every fully abandon the precautions themselves - and training covers both approaches. What I was advocating was an emphasis on prevention, but not necessarily sacrificing training on precautions. The laws on health and safety-related training are in my view adequate to cover emergency preparedness. However, if this is beefed up by specific reference in Fire law then all well and good, but I would think the goal setting principle based on appropriate risk assessment will apply and it won't demand specific training requirements such as use of extinguishers - of course I might be wrong so feel free to advise me accordingly. DSEAR requires an appropriate risk assessment to be carried out - a good RA mechanism will have already included current fire precautions and prevention measures anyway so this shouldn't be too difficult to comply with. A clear plan, with nominated personnel to control and action as required, and appropriate facilities being provided and maintained is good and to be expected - but prevention is better than cure. Of the number of small fires that are successfully tackled on site before the need to contact the professionals - how many are properly investigated and the lessons learnt applied to ensure there is no repetition? Even better - surely the lessons being learnt should be shared amongst ALL companies so we can all take measures to ensure we DON'T have to deal with the same situations!

Posted By Ken Taylor Get a fire blanket, Jason. They are better than wet cloths - which can dry out from the heat and then ignite. On the point that you don't have to have a Fire Safety Co-ordinator (or whatever you call them), if the employer doesn't give someone the job, he/she has to do it him/herself.