Posted By Clair Parfrey Are nuns employed? and therefore are convents seen as workplaces and subject to the usual H&S legislation?

Posted By Edward H It is of course not just a question of employment... the critical test for application is "at Work". They may not be employed but may be engaged in the undertaking of the diocese or order to which they belong or may be in control of premises etc. In which case certain duties will still apply.

Posted By Ken Taylor Vicars work and seem to be paid to do so. Convents can be workplaces when work activities take place there in addition to domestic/residential use. Persons working in covents will come under HASAWA, etc. The CofE and the RC church are employers. I wonder if the HSE have issued any guidance on this. I cannot recall any convent inspections during my time in an EH department - but, presumably, they were considered to be low risk.

Posted By Shane Johnston Are Vicars and Nuns paid ? The money they receive is not a salary or wage packet. I have attended interviews where the interviewing company has given me a milage allowance for driving to the interview .... this doesn't make me employed by that company. What I am trying to say is just because Vicars receive money does not mean they are employed. They don't have a job, they have a vocation. I feel fairly confident that Vicars/Nuns are not employed and that they are not covered by HASAWA. However, as I said earlier the Church/Convent does employ people (gardeners etc), who definetly are employees. Shane

Posted By Jonathan Breeze Whilst not addressing the original question (I'm quite good at that I've noticed) I understood that all clergy received a stipend and that this is different in some way from a salary or a wage.

Posted By Andy Petrie Who's looking after the poor monks in all this

Posted By Ken Taylor In an attempt to make things clearer: Churches presided over by vicars, ministers, pastors, or whatever the title may be, who are in receipt of payment for their services come under HASAWA irrespective of how the payment is termed. I suspect that convents and monasteries will also come under HASAWA if they engage in work activities (irrespective of there being no payment to those doing the job). If the premises are purely domestic/residential, I suspect that they will not - but would be interested to hear further from any HSE or EH people.

Posted By Geoff Burt Not only are they paid (whatever it is called they are still paid and to fixed pay scales - anything else is semantics) but they also have a career structure. How can they be anything else but employed?

Posted By Alec Wood There is much confusion in this area, and not just from a H&S point of view. In terms of general employment law, clergy have hereto be considered to be "employees of God". Due to the difficulties involved in issuing official notices to God, this has historically allowed churches et al to sidestep much employment legislation. I forget its name, but the business programme on BBC on Sunday recently discussed this very issue of clergy's employment status, in this instance specifically in relation to the working time directive. Apparently, plans are afoot by the government to define their status as employees of the church, treating the church as if it were a normal company with normal resposibilities, for the purposes of applying employers duties under law. One would presume that such a definition would be equally applicable in the H&S arena, unless specifically exempted. As regards employment, surely payment in the form goods or services, in the case of the nuns food accommodation clothing etc, is still payment and could be considered just as much a wage as cold hard cash.

Posted By Philosophical This is an interesting debate to watch as it does highlight differing approaches to the application of legislation. It seems to be a debate between dogmatists and pragmatists. I tend to come down in favour of the latter and agree with Adrian's point, which clearly requires us to look at areas beyond the black and white of the Health and Safety at Work Act. I also agree with the point of view of many of the others who have stated that even if the HSWA doesn't directly cover the "clergy", it does cover the venue if others work there, or indeed members of the public go there.