Posted By Raymond Rapp I have recently learnt that the current CIRAS railway journal is to be discontinued. I am unable to ascertain why or who has authorised it or whether it will be produced in another format. I would be interested in whether anyone can shed some light on this issue. Regards Ray

Posted By Raymond Rapp Maurice Thank you for your detailed response. I thought this thread had died a death.. Regards Ray

Posted By Andrew Newman I think this raises an interesting issue regarding the viability of CIRAS. I worked on the project for just over a year and as a H&S professional with railway experience, I am of the firm belief that the money could be better spent. Imagine if you will you are a subbie to one of the major IMCs, it cold and wet, one of the P-Way staff has been told to work red zone in a red zone prohibited area. He protests, but is told to do it or be sacked. So what does he do? Do the work, risk life and limb and also his PTS card if Network Rail turns up? Or does he stand his ground, lose his job and jeopardise his future career in the railway? Well let’s be honest in such circumstances some people would do the job and take the risk. So let us say that our subbie does the work but he knows it is only time before he’s told to do the same job again. So he decides to contact CIRAS, the confidential incident reporting system which costs the railways millions of pounds each year. So he gives CIRAS a bell and has a short interview. So what would be done? Well a short report would be generated, something on the lines of “a sub-contractor working for big bird IMC has been told to work red zone in a red zone prohibited area”. This would be forwarded to the IMC for a response. Imagine if you will, you are now the Safety Manager for the IMC, you are required by your Safety Case to subscribe to CIRAS and you receive just such a report. You may have had hundreds or thousands of contractors working for you over the last few months. What would you say? “This could kill someone I need some more information. Where is it? Who is it? When was it?” Sadly you will never find out the information you need to resolve this situation from CIRAS, it may compromise confidentiality. The Safety Manager is then in a difficult position he is somewhat powerless. He could issue a briefing, but what do briefings matter to people who intentionally ignore procedures? This may sound like an unlikely scenario, but it was typical of how a CIRAS report was handled. I may sound cynical here, but confidentiality prevents me from detailing the numbers of complaints I saw resolved in my time working for CIRAS. But what I can say is that I wouldn’t have to have taken my socks off to count. So what’s wrong? Well CIRAS lacks teeth, it can’t enforce anything. So if for example a company provides a statement on the lines of “This is the procedure, if this isn’t done report to the manager”. Then all CIRAS can do is request a change and maybe enter an editorial comment in the journal, nothing more. The people working on CIRAS are good hard working people but have never worked on the railway nor do they have any safety experience. This is somewhat problematic for a railway incident reporting system. It can make it difficult to understand issues, such as why a PICOP shouldn’t also be an ES at the same time for a multi-site possession. Or at a simpler level what a T(ii) is and what problems which can be encountered with them. There is also a problem with confidentiality. In many cases confidentiality prevents information such as time, date and location from being handed over to the Company. This information is often needed by the company to get the issue resolved. Now undoubtedly confidentiality is very important for some people and everything should be done to maintain it. But where the person doesn’t mind or care about his confidentiality, what is the logic of maintaining it? Especially when peoples’ health and safety is concerned. I am trying to find something positive to say, and to be truthful the very few benefits I see are outweighed by the costs. It is time for a major review of CIRAS, perhaps it is time to consider whether the money can be spent elsewhere, such as employing more HMRI inspectors who will be more active at stopping people from being injured. Once I left CIRAS, a colleague of mine who worked on the railway at the time told me that his company having received a CIRAS report put up some lighting to resolve the complaint. The lighting didn’t work as it wasn’t wired in, but the company happily responded to CIRAS that lighting had been installed at the location and this was duly printed. Imagine doing that to the HMRI? I must apologise if this seems very negative, I am a modern H&S professional and am a great believer in exploring new practices and always looking to take things forward in new ways. But sorry, in my opinion CIRAS is a lame duck. However I am open minded and would quiet happily reconsider my opinions should a cost benefit analysis be shown which justifies the expenditure. Regards Andy

Posted By Andrew Newman Raymond Thanks for the comments, I am not suprised to here of your experience. I really do think it is time for a fundamental review of this system. Look forward to watching the thread. Regards Andy

Posted By Andrew Newman Sorry if I did not make myself clear previously the example I gave was made up by me, purely as an example. It is interesting to see that you worked for a company where there were some pressure to provide non-text book responses to reports. Was this due to a desire to receive information, action accordingly and reduce risk levels? Or was is more of a political motivation? Please forgive the note of cynicism, I hope it was the latter. I say that because the reponse to CIRAS from the companies is somewhat varied from happy to receive reports, always responding professionally but none the less not taking the system too seriously, to that downright hostile, "CIRAS what the effing ell do you want." If I haven't convinced you yet as to whether CIRAS it worthwile, here's something interesting. Take one of the CIRAS journals. Distribution c 36,000. In one journal a questionnaire was included for feedback from receipents. I understand that response from such requests is typically 3-5%, as such a response rate of 1000-1800 would be expected. I won't tell you how many were returned, but if you have seen today's cricket, then should Mr Vaughan's lovely innings continue to treble figures, he will certainly deserve it and he'll better the response rate I'm talking about. Cheers Andy

Posted By Raymond Rapp David It is a fair point that you make but until the opportunity arises perhaps Maurice would like to comment on Andy's remarks regarding the inegrity of CIRAS. I for one have never been totally satisfied with a 'confidential reporting system' for two reasons. First, it is indicative of the prevailing safety culture within the railway industry. Where those who work in the industry cannot report issues confidentially within their own company. Secondly, the company's own incident reporting system will envitably suffer, as mine has done to the extent that it has almost become redundant. If those working in the railway industry are to have any confidence in CIRAS then the responses must become more honest and accountable. There are undoubtedly many incidents which are 'reportable' and hence should be properly and independantly investigated. Otherwise safety will be reduced to 'paper safety' and God knows, there is enough of that already. Regards Ray

Posted By Raymond Rapp David - thanks for the prompt response and I will look forward to Maurice (CIRAS) responding in due course. Incidentally, I hope to do my MBA dissertation on a safety related topic, as yet to be decided. Regards Ray

Posted By Maurice Wilsdon There have been several posts since I last made a contribution. I will try to give a reply covering the main points. From this spring a new CIRAS organisation will be in place. Building on the excellent work of those who set up the existing system, the new organisation will aim to encourage more reports from those working in frontline positions in the industry, with a view to addressing more of their concerns. We’ll carry on publishing information bulletins for the staff, although the format of these may well be different to the existing Journals. We are not just ‘tinkering’ with the Journals for the sake of it; we’re looking at ways to improve the way we communicate with frontline staff. Equally, we’re exploring ways of encouraging companies to make better use of CIRAS, which compliments their own internal reporting processes, so they can take better advantage of the system they fund and so improve their safety procedures. As with any confidential reporting system, there’s a balance to strike between maintaining trust in the process, and providing companies with enough information to make necessary changes. Whilst we’re by no means complacent, we believe we’re getting this balance right. If a safety manager receives a report that they think provides insufficient information to be of any real value, we encourage them to contact CIRAS staff and ask for more material details; wherever this is possible, we are happy to help but we will always treat the confidentiality of the reporter as being paramount. CIRAS does not claim to be a panacea to resolve all of the industry’s safety reporting concerns, but it is an invaluable tool for this purpose and it can complement the other systems. However, to be successful, it relies on reporters and companies to give good quality information and responses. With regard to possible future speaking events, these will be handled by the head of the new CIRAS unit, whose appointment is now pending. If the new head’s diary permits, then I’m sure they’ll be happy to come along to the Railway Safety Group’s networking events, and discuss any concerns raised. CIRAS will be a transparent and accessible body – the better our relations with safety professionals, the better able we are to do our job. All of us at CIRAS take seriously the concerns of those working within the industry, and are grateful to hear about their experiences of CIRAS. It’s in response to some of the soundings we’ve received from industry that we are establishing the new unit. However, we would ask that you bear with us during our transitional period. I hope to make further announcements in the near future on the progress in establishing the new CIRAS unit. These will be publicised in the rail press and at appropriate industry events. Maurice Wilsdon, project manager to the CIRAS Charitable Trust