Posted By John Watson Dave Completely agree. Intellectual property is a very precious thing. I think it can also be dangerous to share. For example I came across a client recently with a FANTASTIC H&S policy, far too good for them to have written. Upon delving deeper it turns out they had cut and pasted someone elses. Did they understand it-no, did they even know what was in it-no. How protected where their employees..... I will leave that for others to decide.

Posted By Paul Craythorne Dave, Chill out or you will get high blood pressure. Plagiarism (hope I spelt it right) will always be a useful tool in any profession. I have had my work incorporated into one of my former employers corporate health and safety management system and they have floated it as there own. I actually feel quite proud of this although a little recognition wouldn't go amiss. I have begged and borrowed stuff myself and used it (never claiming it was my own invention mind you) and I have also provided many things to many requesters. The cycle of health and safety goes on and we all need a little help sometimes. We are masters of our own creations but only god knows everything. Regards, Paul Craythorne

Posted By Charley Farley-Trelawney Its the way of the world I suppose; anyway what really does make my blood boil and smoke emit from the ears is when they can't even be bothered to say thank you. I will always help where possible, I needed it once,(long time before copy and paste i will add, those days it was a stone tablet and a flint...UGGGG!) It would be good if the responses stopped this 'can I ave one as well pleeease' it's actually a pain when you tick the little box and end up with loads of emails all saying the same, and if its any consolation I would never give to those that come after, at least the person who asked took the time to ask, and therefore thought about it, the others, well............... I have only ever asked once, when I was in a fix for a PP presentaion, that Frank and Merv soon put me in my place, I wouldent have the nerve to ask again!!! Charles

Posted By Tina J Ambler I agree with both sides of the discussion. Yes it is annoying when someone can't be bothered to attempt to undertake the work themselves and also use someone else's work for monetary gain. Also the point that the ones of of us who are true professionals and have worked hard both in their studies and employment are willing to share 'good practice'. My philosophy is if something works then why reinvent the wheel. As Paul says only God has the knowledge about everything. We all have our own specialisms and can assist others or point them in the right direction. A Private Forum only accessible by true H&S Professionals might be the answer.

Posted By Dave Wilson Put this way, If a person consistently asks for advice and templates and risk Ass and method statements on this site and is then using that as part of their business and passing it off as their work for financial gain!!!!! there is a difference between that and sharing this info with other H&S professionals to assist them in their job.

Posted By Jasonjg I have many times tried to help others with info or the occasional presentation material. Nothing too great as I am in the very early parts of my safety life so will use google to its full potential and then sift through and discard the rubbish. I do also fully understand the comments about people asking for info and not even responding with a simple thank you. I now try to check email addresses before sending anything but still will send material if I suspect it’s a genuine request for study or in-house company help. Lets face it, the typical safety manager has enough on their plates most of the time where as a safety consultancies should be creating their own forms etc via research and knowledge. One example of when I ask for help is through the study forum, E.g. one respondent had asked for someone to provide a copy of their dip 2 assignment for some pointers on layout. They made it very clear that their intentions were honest. I also am about to do my assignments so jumped on the bandwagon and directly emailed the guy who offered to help. In that email I strictly stuck to my guns and asked him not to provide anything relevant to the 5 assignments (showing him the list). He kindly responded by sending me an assignment from a complete different subject (once again thank you to the responder). As others have said, We should use caution but not to the point where genuine calls for help are now ignored. Just keep a list of your own beggars, ignorant and scoundrels and always try to be polite and helpful to others. And to finnish off, does anyone want to review my new survey tool that’s currently work in progress lol. Polite Overworked company Safety Managers need only reply lol lol. 20 emails later (wish I never asked lol ) does it all sound familiar Regards Jason

Posted By Merv Newman Charlie, you got the job though ! Remember : * Using only one source of information is plagiarising. Only amateurs do that. * Using TWO sources is research. This is the accepted professional approach. * Drawing from THREE sources is deep research and qualifies for government funding. Can also get you a PhD and book rights. * More than three sources is Metaresearch and should only be undertaken after EU funding has been obtained. Professorship, Film and TV serialisation are guaranteed (your choice of who plays you and opposite sex lead) Merv

Posted By Dave Wilson its difficult to come staight out, suffice to say that if you enter a name into the search engine you will get all the postings they have been invoved in on the site. and some people can only be using this requested specific info as part of their business, not as a H&S employee for a single company

Posted By J Knight I agree with you Dave; asking for help in order to help out doing in-house work is fine, and I also have no problem with people looking for examples to help them evaluate or develop their own stuff even if it is for a client, I haven't even got any problem with word for word plagiarism provided it is all done openly and up front. I have helped people on this forum, people have helped me, and it's always been a straight up transaction between fellow professionals, what Dave is talking about is a bit different, and I wonder if our friendly moderators have any views on this? Would it be a breach of acceptable use? John

Posted By James K I have read with interest this thread. I have worked in H&S for many years but only in the past 4 years did I work in the construction end of H&S. When I first started in this area I joined IOSH and this website. I can honestly say that only for this website and the contributers I would never have made it. I got great advice and information from many people ( and still do ) I also try and give assistance whenever I can. I think that this forum is vital for the growth of the profession and the less experienced depend greatly on the more wiser for help and guidance. I have been approached by persons in the past ( NOT HERE ) for information that they were going to utilise for their own financial gain and I refused. I can see why there are concerns but please lets not stop sharing information. Lets just be aware and mindful of who is requesting help/assistance/information. I started off as an assistant safety officer and have progressed to H&S manager thrugh no small help from this forum and members. I would like to take this oppertunity to thank most sincerely all those who have assisted me in the past. Go Raibh Maith Agut ( Many thanks ) Jim

Posted By Dave Wilson James I agree and I will keep sharing etc however I will be 'mindful' of whi I send it too etc Why should I spend years in college and uni to get to the nay 'dizzy heights' spend hours at work and at home to do work and then respond to a plea for help to share info and then that info is used by another person for a fast buck!!! Is what i am getting at. Please be aware that I have no evidence or proof that this is happening on this site but I was bored the otherday and started playing around so to speak and it suddenly struck me.

Posted By Nick Higginson hmmm... A sticky subject this. Have sent many things to people requesting help and have always been happy to do it - not too interested in searching to see how many times they have helped others. There does seem to be some hostility towards consultants. Consultants are also H&S professionals and are just as entitled to ask for help as anyone else - it is upto individuals whether or not they respond. I have recently become a self employed consultant, and it is not an easy thing to do. Giving up a job and making a smooth transition to earning enough from self employment is difficult and timing is often crucial. I found myself in a pinch and asked for help on here with some fairly basic stuff - MH, DSE, Fire, COSHH etc. I got loads of help from kind contributors (although I did get mails from some cheeky beggars asking me to send them anything I was forwarded!). I am not that bothered by people copying what I have done - I console myself in the knowledge that I can produce that quality of work (be it good or bad) again and again. H&S is one of the few professions I know where people are really keen to help each other out - lets not try to change it eh? Kind regards Nick

Posted By Merv Newman The "bonfire" posting is an excellent example of where I would have freely offered advice : A site H&S person meeting a problem to which they do not know the answer. Asking for help, and getting it, from the experts. It is also an area in which I am totally incompetent (one of many)

Posted By Nick Higginson Rob Not all consultants cut and paste policies or provide generic risk assessments. I agree that there are many that do. It sounds as if you are hoping that consultants will die a death, but this will never happen. There are many SME's that can get all the work they need from a consultant (including tailored policies, risk assessments, inspections etc.) for about £5-10k per year. In these organisations, bottom line is all important so when they compare this to £25k per year for an in-house safety advisor (plus insurance, holidays, sick, CPD etc. etc.) there will only ever be one outcome. Information for SME's is just one part of the problem - they do not have time or resource to act on the information given. Kind regards Nick

Posted By Rob Malcolm Nick, Good comments, you’re absolutely right in saying that not all consultants cut and paste policies etc. I happen to know a few and none of them use this method, BUT- I’m glad you’re honest to say that some do, I know a few of them too! Honestly I don’t wish for all consultants to die a death, I may wish to become one myself some day. I work for an organisation that has previously struggled to keep up with H&S improvements and has relied on local external consultants to provide policies, RA, manual handling training etc. after which they have simply never been asked to return. What goods that? I ask myself. The point I was making is that small organisations should take the initiative and empower its staff with the required knowledge internally so that it can maintain a permanently improving standard rather than an ad hoc one. My organisation took the initiative to employ me as their H&S guy from within the company after 7 years experience at the coalface. 3 years later & 1 NEBOSH certificate, year 1&2 Diploma and I still receive nothing close to £25k a year for the task BUT boy I’m passionate about it. Thanks for putting me in my place though by highlighting to me that I was in danger of alienating myself from all the H&S consultants out there. Sorry Consultants, I’ll get my coat! Back in my (flower) box! Rob Malcolm p.s. Dave, the King Prawn Bhuna is'nt good for your high blood pressure, any £5K to £10K consultant can tell you that.

Posted By Nick Higginson On second thoughts, I've changed my mind. Now that I've put my Management system together and copyrighted it, I'm not sending anyone anything. Regards Nick PS Management system is available from my website only £299.99. Buy 2 get one free. Click on "Health & Safety in a box".

Posted By MichaelM Dave et al I have just come back from holiday to see this fantastic and selfless thread!! A couple of points concern me though. The point about some people not allowing their e-mails to be seen in in my view a total red herring. I don't put mine as I work in a LA and I don't feel I should open myself up to binmen or plant pot story hassle!!! I have to date never asked for anything but have freely given my advice and have e-mailed forms etc directly to H&S people like ourselves who have requested help. I have always been taught by my H&S mentor, who introduced me to this giddy world a few years ago, that there is no point re-inventing the wheel and that there is no such thing as restricted information in H&S. I agree. I have had a lot of help from some of my H&S friends/contacts (including consultants) over the years and have gladly helped them. As was said previously only God knows all or was that Harry Potter!?! To my H&S colleagues "Live long and Prosper" (including the consultants). Michael

Posted By Dave Wilson is asking for 40 diffirent Risk Assessments/ Specific Method Statemets / Policies etc over the last 3 years a bit excessive? just asking?

Posted By Jack Give us a clue Dave, just a subtle one, so we can guess who it is.

Posted By Ron Impey Yes, seems like eBay is a singularly unsuccessful way of selling risk assessment and training presentations, judging by the number of items with 0 bids. No wonder, given the number of good ones available on-line for free, http://livelink.barnardo....ViewDoc&nodeId=28336115 or which can be obtained by a posting on this board. Has anyone prepared anything very recent on anti-terrorism procedures?