Posted By Andy JC
Can you tell me how you can justify sending anyone on the NEBOSH National Diploma course when the failure rate traditionally has been around 70% please? I do not understand how any manager can justify spending the noticeable sums of money required to put someone through the course when there is a significant probability of failure. How can you show value for money? If the person fails, do you justify sending them again and again until they pass; I’ve heard many people have 3 or more goes at passing different parts of the course, or do you dismiss them for incompetence? Or do you just ignore NEBOSH Diploma and let them carry on with doing the job anyway with just a Certificate, in which case, why waste the money in the first place?

Posted By John McFeely
One of the basics of Health and Safety is that it will only succeed when it is led from the top. Disapointing to see a manager think that H&S training is a waste of money and time. If we all focused on the negative IOSH would never have existed, children would still be cleaning chimneys and it would be pointless going for life saving operations if they only offered a 70% chance of success. I suggest, with all due respect Andy that you take the course too as it will help improve your knowledge and attitude towards H&S. In answer to anyone who has the attitude that Health and Safety is expensive - Yes it can be, but failure to implement Health and Safety can be even more expensive, it can cost lives!

Posted By Jay Joshi
There are several other routes that may be more cost effective for aquiring "practitoner level" health & safety qualifications, including distance learning.

There have been several threads on the perceived prominence of the NEBOSH National Diploma and the degree of "difficulty" in passing the exams. The reality now is that the significant majority of entrants to Graduate membership of IOSH is via University (post graduate cert/diploma/degree) & Higher learning institutions.

It is not fair to fault NEBOSH for its examination system and standards for evaluation & assessment of assignments/exams papers/projects. NEBOSH does not compel anyone to take their exams.

Lastly, the cost of the exams is insignificant compared to the course fees charged by NEBOSH training course prividers.

Posted By Ciaran O'Connor
The current academic culture, which seems to pervade, is that "I paid the money, where's my qualification?" I think that attitude is totally reprehensible. Failure as always is an orphan.

Posted By Sean Nuttall
This brought a smile to my face this morning and perhaps I have the devil in me today but here are my thoughts on why you and your employer should go for the diploma.
Whether we like it or not, the NEBOSH diploma is the benchmark that people look for and will continue to look for, for years to come. Yes you can gain your various levels of IOSH membership by other routes and NVQs are particularly popular with those who want a statistically more successful route but at the end of the day anyone who has been through the "pain" of gaining the beloved dip will expect it of others. I only have dip 1 at the moment but it was hardly the most difficult thing in the world.
I don't think it is wholly fair of one of the previous posters to say that perhaps people are too thick to pass hence the low pass rate but if it was easy then everyone would have it and I know quite a few practitioners who didn't have the necessary nounce to pass the NEBOSH dip but have managed to sneak through to CMIOSH with NVQs.
If you can get the finance through your employer or can make it yourself then do it. Though I am sure this next bit could provoke derision from some people, but if you are interviewing for a post with your dip and against you is someone with an NVQ and the recruiting manager suffered the "supposed pain" of the NEBOSH diploma then who do you think is in the better position ? Nuff said. Yes it is worth taking it on. If someone can't pass dip then perhaps they have ventured into in the wrong profession ?

Posted By Ian Scholey
I have to agree with Peter. I was fortunate to pass Dip 4 but many others in my group didn't. However this does not mean that they are any worse than me in fact they may be better. I was maybe lucky in the exams, but going back to the original point and looking at it from a different angle if you were looking to invest money into something with a failure rate of 70% it would point that the quality was lacking somewhere (would you buy a car or TV of this quality bath tub curves etc etc). People would question your judgement and you would look at alternative options. There is a serious problem in the system and I don't think that companies and individuals are aware of the pass rate until they have paid their money. It is not enough for NEBOSH to sit back and say its a difficult exam they must put more effort into assisting students and the course providers. What about this for a new thread NEBOSH exam centre league tables. If these results as a percentage were reflected in GCSE results then it would be enough to bring down a government.

Posted By Max Bancroft
NVQ - not very qualified!!! - not very professional to slag off your fellow members if they have a different qualification from you. It would be useful to know how many persons start but don't finish their NVQ level 4 finding that, after all, it isn't the easy option. I speak from experience of doing an NVQ and it demanded knowledge, committment (and money.)

The original point of the thread was - why does NEBOSH have a 70% failure rate. Haven't really seen an answer to that.

Posted By Peter Longworth
Your quite correct Max no-one seems to want to address the question of why the failure rate for the NEBOSH diploma is so high.

Posted By Peter Longworth
Now I've completely lost it. Better be quiet from now on.

Posted By Philip McAleenan
For those who may wish to compare the level of the NEBOSH National Diploma with NVQ, it is worth noting this descriptor from the NEBOSH site about the Diploma,

“… its syllabus offers those seeking to demonstrate competence in the subject (for instance, by means of a National or Scottish Vocational Qualification) the opportunity to cover the domain knowledge required through an appropriately structured programme of learning.”

As NVQs require evidence of both domain knowledge and competence it is inappropriate to suggest that the NVQ is a “lesser qualification”.

And when we compare it with a degree, the following is stated;

“NEBOSH is also committed to the continued development of specialist awards and to working closely with the university sector in gaining acceptance of the NEBOSH awards as prior learning for parts of MSc programmes.”

Nothing here states that it is a degree or a degree equivalent. The case is that NEBOSH National Diploma should be considered by the university sector as what it is, evidence of prior learning. If the universities accept this case, it will not necessarily make the diploma a degree equivalent.

As to why the pass rate is so low, the examiners report may be read here, http://www.nebosh.org.uk...ntDocuments129v3834.pdf. In addition, it is worth analysing the sample answers on the NEBOSH website, and how they are marked; http://www.nebosh.org.uk/students.asp#docs

Regards, Philip

Posted By Steve Cartwright
Hi All

Justifying spending the money on NEBOSH Diploma.

Firstly your Manager must have done some research before sending you on your NEBOSH Diploma course. Have you not asked him/her why? They must have a reason why they chose this course.

Secondly your Manager probably knows that this is the benchmark in H&S qualifications. Why else would so many employers insist on a NEBOSH Diploma qualification. They can't all be wrong.

I personnally would not spend my time worrying about justifying employers spending money on any training whether it be NEBOSH, NVQ or Degree. Just be grateful you are in a position where the company you work for is willing to pay for your training. I know several people who have funded it themselves.

When I sat my Dip 2 exam there were people in the exam room saying they were going to fail it before they had seen the exam paper. Like I said in an earlier post, FAILURE TO PREPARE BE PREPARED TO FAIL.

There are too many people in this world who want it handed on a plate. Read the books do the work and you never know you might be one of the 30%. Remember the glass is always half full.

Regards

Steve

P.S.

I do apologise to all who have NVQ's. How unprofessional of me. I've got lots of them.

Posted By Tom Harmon
Perhaps the solution to the high failure rate would be the introduction of an intermeadiate qualification; the jump fron general certificate to Level 4 national diploma is possibly the equivelant of GCSE straight to degree level learning. Completely missing out the "A level" phase ?

Posted By gham
Did anyone els find that they spent more time learning how to answer the questions to an accepted nebosh standard rather that on knowledge of the subject.

we where told to concentrate more on wording grammar etc because you get marked negativly for it....... is this tru because i could not get my head round it at the time


I am now doing a univ. PgDip which is far better structured and balanced, the uni seems more concerned which what you have learned..... and yes i did pass the NEBOSH exams which i sat.

Posted By Jasonjg
That’s the only thing that scares me about the Nebosh prt 2 or lvl 4.

Spelling and grammar going against the marks,

Is there actually any truth to this? because if there is, I am in trouble.

I have been pumping my own money (£5000+ base that on a average of min wage) into these qualifications and so far not had a failed exam yet (touches the wood).

Nothing to do with School/education as I left with no quals after attending six schools, so you can all see I was probably a problem child in my teens.

Now should I get knocked back on spelling or grammar errors, I will choke and spit out feathers but strive on as usual (just another 12 months of wasted potential talent held back because of that last qualification needed).

All this said

It is my own ego, that I am feeding here, as I probably could have invested the money into smaller more manageable courses to get into the field and probably be earning more and making more of a difference also.

Just exactly how bad is the dip2/lvl 4 grammar markdowns in the exams? Surely they cannot be that bad (looks round in a naive fashion)

As far as justifying the cost to the company is concerned.

A re-sit does not cost that much anyway. I would have been grateful at any chance I got for others to pay and should I pass prt2 first time round, then I feel I have to join in with the others who say "fail to prepare = prepare to fail".

In the end it should all be worth it for the person and the company. (If its not, I am hunting down all those who talked me into this line of work lol)

Posted By John Mackessack
The 'diploma' posts on these forums are always highly entertaining, and the spectre of NVQ vs Diploma always rears its ugly head.

My theory on the ever low pass rate for diploma is that individuals are often, from the outset, completely unprepared for what lays ahead. The NEBOSH diploma is NOT easy. It is NOT meant to be easy. So lets not degenerate into the farcical situation of lowering the bar to let more people have a 'pass'. There are already plenty of organisations festooning people with qualifications of questionable worth as it is.

I have slogged my way through almost everything NEBOSH and feel I have the right to comment. Having gone the two-part diploma route (after cert), I found part two far more relaxed than part one. This probably explains why my grades were all lower too!

It does annoy me that some posters often dis the nebosh route and blame some quirk in the nebosh examination structure as opposed to their own failings and lack of preparation.

Frankly, the diploma exams can be terrifying, especially if you do not prepare properly:

- you MUST have a structured approach to study and revision.
- you MUST select your course provider carefully
- you MUST acquire every past paper and examiners' report
- you MUST buy the 'blue book'.
- you MUST research your subject as widely as you can
- you MUST make sure you devote enough time to it
- you MUST get your assignments done in a timely fashion as this alleviates the pressure greatly when the exams beckon.
also,
- if you need to improve your literacy - DO IT!

If you do the above you will greatly enhance your chances of passing. With very few exceptions, the individuals that failed at any part of the diploma, had tended to struggle through the entire course, with assignment referrals, missed tutorials etc etc.

With regards 'nebosh-speak', buy the blue book and read it! It explains what they mean by 'list', 'outline', describe', 'explain' etc. This is usually the crux of the mythical 'nebosh-speak' criticism. Once you have this clear, the questions are reasonably straight-forward.

So, if you learn the 'knowledge' and prepare, you will succeed.

It's easy really (!)

John

Posted By Andy JC
The biggest problem that I can see with the NEBOSH setup is the high failure rate: as a manager, I would not put anyone on the course unless I accept that passing the exam may or may not happen. I am fortunate to have a supporting line management with experience of NEBOSH who do not expect miracles but are helping where they can, something that many of my classmates do not have.

I for one am not someone who expects to get a certificate for basically attending a course but I expect to have a reasonable chance of passing. I believe that NEBOSH and possible IOSH need to have a study into why the failure rate is so high and DO something to address it. Some of the factors I believe are relevant are:

• Most course members are on their second, third of even forth careers which puts them into the older age bracket when learning is known to be slower

• Being older, they will have learned in a different fashion to that assumed by many course providers. Neither is necessarily wrong, but can be a culture clash.

• They may not have attended any serious education of significant level for many years which can a shock to the system

• They have families: this limits the home time that can be spent on the course work

• Being older, they are more likely to health restrictions on the amount of time/energy they can commit to studying

• Most do not have a choice over which provider they use – it’s defined by their employer and often on the biases of cost and convenience: not results

• Available resources to aid study: the course is obviously set-up with the assumption (as stated in the Blue Book) that people will do a lot of reading around the subject; many do not have access to such resource even if they had time to read it.

• NEBOSH do state their definitions in the Blue Book on their weird and wonderful take on the English language: if you do not adopt them, you will not obtain full marks. These terms may be common in the educational world but are irrelevant in the real world, hence making it difficult for many people to remember the distinctions and their usage. Are these arbitrary definitions relevant or should they be simplified or even removed?

• Looking at past examiners reports, I’m fairly certain that one year a given question will give rise to a comment along the lines that students wasted time writing about irrelevant related information. The following a year a very similar question will say that lots of marks were missed because students did not write around the topic but kept strictly to the subject. I have been told that when a question is set with a marking scheme, it is not uncommon for the question to be tweaked to fit the overall exam paper without referring the amended version back for the marking scheme to be reviewed. Given that the some questions are slightly modified version of pervious exam’s questions, this appears credible but would indicate a potential weakness in the management of the exam process.

Posted By Bill Fisher
Oh dear Kate!

Has your mind gone blank - spelling - or are you afraid to use those words?

Either way GOODLUCK!! to you and everyone doing their thing this week

Bill

Posted By Paul Leadbetter
Does the status of the Diploma reflect the difficulty in passing it? If so, then any increase in the pass rate will devalue it.

Paul

Posted By stephencarey
This will probably incur some harsh responses but i will say it. Although i recognise the value of exams and the confidence it gives employers and of course the proof that you are a competent person and good wishes to all that follow this course.I believe what is required is a sound working knowledge of the regulations, very good common sense, sound practical knowledge and the backing including finance of the management to achieve a safe site.If you can proove your abilities in a practical sense would that not prove you are a competent person or is it that it is not recognised this way by the regulatory authorities.

Posted By Rob T
Just a couple of points - if 100% of people taking the exams work hard and assimilate all the information required - you'll get a 100% pass rate. NEBOSH do not set a 70% failure level! (if they did I would be in total agreement with you). It would completely degrade the achievements of all those who have passed if they downgrade the pass marks (like todays GCSE's and A levels).

Once again I think that some people just want an easy way of doing something that others have slogged their guts out to get!