Posted By AJM Having been in safety a while now, there are various ways off getting involved some straight from college into becoming professionals others from shop floor to safety reps to becoming professional safety people. Obviously one of our biggest challenges and most rewarding, is to change peoples perceptions and ideals of safety. So with that in mind,I wondered what peoples opinion is regarding this statement; To fully understand the psyche of a shop floor worker you need to of worked at that level, to of walked a mile in that mans shoes as it were. How can someone that has never worked at that level fully understand that mindset. This is just something i am very interested in your professional opinion on. Thanks in advance. Alan

Posted By Amy Upton Hi Alan I started of on the shop floor as a machine op Was a safety rep Move to H&S co-ordinator because I wanted to make a difference I had a brillant mentor who left to progress his career elsewhere I became a site safety officer and now work as a site Health & Safety manager with 3 direct reports I agree you need the experience otherwise how do you know what your talking about Regards Amy

Posted By AJM Thanks very much for the answers so far. In Answer to Jeffery's thread I know you dont have to be there all the time. I meant you need to of actually lived that experience of shop floor mentality to fully understand it. No book in the world can truely give you that experience. I think you need a good blend of both. I worked in the coal industry as a coal face worker for 10 years, and textile manufacture for a further 5 then the last 8 years in and around safety. I personally feel it was one of the best rehearsals and schools for understanding you can have as a Safety Manager not only for the experiences it brought with it, but the help towards a hearts and minds approach. The problem is with a lot of prospective employers, its almost if having that experience would go against you. When in reality its one of the most beneficial preperations towards understanding the mind set of everyone in an ultimate aim of all working together for one common goal. Thanks again

Posted By Dee AJM, While I can see your point and agree there are merits in "coming up from the shop floor" I think in this day and age you have to be realistic. Apprenticeships (for example are few and far between in comparison to 15-20 years ago and certainly in my geographical location there is an extreme shortage of H&S personnel, especially those in a younger age bracket. I admit I have never been involved in the shop floor, doesn't mean I do my job any less well. In fact, I find it can at times be an advantage, you are able to ask the simple question and at times pick hazards and risks up that those who have been involved with it now miss. I am not there to tell someone how to do their job but I am there to give them a different perception, pick up different aspects. I have worked in the oil & gas industry for the last several years, should I have a technical query than I ask the right person. Okay, my engineering mindset is not great but I do believe my hazard and risk perception are and hence H&S being a team effort. For example, if risk assessments need to be carried out in a technical environment than I get the shop floor/technical people to do it, I can then challenge and discuss their findings without being blinkered by previous experience. In fact, I have come across a number of science and engineering bods who struggle to get to grips with H&S because it isn't always logical and straight-forwarded. I have seen a number of job advertisements in my time looking for the elusive person with all the qualifications and over 10 years experience (which is essentially what you are suggesting)and 9 times out of 10 they don't exist and if they do they are doing lovely overseas jobs!! This would mean you would be looking at no-one under 30 being involved in H&S. So I think yes you have a point for some industries but overall I think there is room for both.

Posted By AJM I agree Dee with a lot that you say, but I suppose the comment I originally made is aimed primarily at manufacturing where I work. And I understand the same principles can be adapted in most places, I myself involve everyone I can as a team effort and rationale is the best way for everyone to buy in and get things to work. For instance where I work I have reduced accidents by 60% in my 6 months there using the very methodology you talk about. But I mean as well to experience that pressure at that level, of doing something unsafely because the system doesn't support you. Or because you are trying to get the job done, because to do it properly and safely means your superiors getting on your back, but when an accident occurs they want to apportion blame, when the very systems that are in place are encouraging the unsafe behavior. I have experienced many managers and directors that cant grasp that. The only reason for that has to be because they have not lived it. I have studied accident case law as part of my qualification and you only have to look at things like the Piper Alpha disaster to see what effect pressure of the job has on safety actions, but reading it and living it are two different things. When I say all this I don't mean I am any better than any other safety professional. We are a breed alone and all add value to our respective sectors. It is simply a Rhetorical question, I was very interested in seeing replies to. I guess having seen the answers and said all this its the systems and beliefs you have to change to get full effect. Its what makes our jobs so rewarding and worthwhile. Thank you for all the thoughtful answers, keep up the good work.

Posted By Alexander Falconer Some very interesting thoughts here, I too cannot claim to have got my hands dirty (unless you count my engineering apprenticeship programme). My route has been, QA Technician, QA Assistant, QA Engineer, QA/Safety Engineer, HSE Specialist, QHSE/Project Engineer, QA Manager, Risk Manager, QHSE Manager and finally Group HSE Manager. Whilst I cannot claim to be as knowledgeable as those at the heart of the processes, my approach is get them involved! Make them feel valued and part of the team! It very often provokes behavioral changes (for the better), stimulates an interest in H&S (4 former employees have made that transaction into H&S), but best of all gets them to contribute towards the development of a company HSE system (and share the applauds/financial rewards once accreditation is attained). This works for me irrespective of which industry I have worked in (Auto Engineering, Electronics, Forging, chemical/semi-conductor, sheet metal/painting/coating, hotel/leisure, plastics, and food/vegetable processing) Now involved in Gas Heating Installation & Servicing, still using same approach. Didn't have a a scooby with regards to CORGI regs, when I joined, but have picked up as I went along, etc Shows you don't need to be at the sharp end, but be keen to learn, and ensure everyone is involved - this is rewards in itself 22% reduction in accidents per year (12 year average) 35% reduction in LTI's/Absences (7 year average) Numerous safety, environment & business awards & recognitions Accredited systems to ISO 14001/OHSAS 18001 My approach seems to work? or does it?

Posted By Alexander Falconer Amy, I am not trying to slate those that get their hands dirty, therefore I resent your comment "bully for you". The purpose of this thread is AJM is asking for comments as to the concept of H&S professionals coming from the "shopfloor" or not. All I stated (as others did within this thread) is that we did not use the "shop floor" route and still have moderate success within the H&S fields. If you read my posting again, you will find that I had encouraged shopfloor personnel to get involved, to the extent 4 of these employees actually enjoyed themselves in doing H&S to the extent they gained qualifications and became full time H&S specialists themselves. Irrespective there is, in my opinion no firm conclusion as to whether H&S professionals are better off coming from shop floor or not. Both types are just as equally effective

Posted By Joe McCluskey When I was a lad.............etc etc I served my "time" as a mech & Prod engineer. Finished my apprenticeship and didn't like it! Took other courses and went on to do joinery (same techniques different materials :) ) Worked on building sites as site joiner and eventually went on to the heady heights of Kitchen Installer. ( Special eye protection for K.I's as the sun shines out of our backsides lol) At one time I even owned a small print shop for a few years. Through some of those years I also worked at night as a nightclub "Door Steward" (dont call us bouncer guv'na)- no such thing as a namby pamby 48 hour week here !! (before I get jumped on - Iam joking about the 48hrs - I know its important etc etc...) Since around 12 - 15 years ago have been in management. Through all of that I gained invaluable experience in a great deal of avenues such as machinery, factory work, construction, "people Skills" etc, but one of the main advantages is that I could turn to one of my subordinates or trainees and say - "look - heres how its done" Its only recently ( last 2 years ) ive taken some "Book smart" courses to bolster the experience ( NEBOSH & PGcert ) but it cant be denied that experience is invaluable. Acedemics who have not tasted their own blood when stupidly cutting off the tip of their finger (ahem- in my favour-it was a long time ago) MAY have a tendency not to realise the severity of holding a Stanley knife incorrectly, or may not even know themselves how to hold one. I use that as an example to illustrate the fact that no matter what trades you interact with in the Health and safety world, a big part of it is simply listening and talking ( 2 ears 1 mouth, remember ) If you dont have the experience you can draw from others, Us university types ( He He ) are in danger of looking aloof to guys in the field and I would say, having "done it" has helped me greatly in understanding the dangers and communicating with the guys in my care. But not having particular experience should not prevent you from identifying hazards and risks. Having never worked in the area, I was once told by a Blacksmith " Spit on it before you pick it up" - sound words I think! After all, as me ol' granpappy used to say " If dont feel safe - it probably isn't, so leave it alone!" PS He also used to say " Never scratch your A$$ with a broken bottle" but thats a different story altogether. Joe

Posted By Tabs Sorry I'm late... A mile in another person's shoes is good experience, but there comes a time and a place when it isn't possible. I don't think you would suggest that only a time-served engineer could be helpful in making a work shop safe, if the safety person consulted those working in the shop. I have a lot of different experiences, and experience of applying those to new situations. The mile in the shoes of just two different trades would likely teach you enough to know why we all talk about knowing your limitations. Some people only need to see someone else walking the mile though. I have a mate who is a chippie on house builds, and after dozens of years listening to him in the pub, I think I could claim an empathy.

Posted By Nigel Hammond This is an interesting question and I think you will get answers that suit each person writing them. If you came into H&S through college you will probably think that gives you a greater technical knowledge, and therefore better understanding. If you came up through from shop floor, you will probably think that is best because you feel more in touch with the real World. I would be interested in looking in the other direction - should you have been a CEO/Director to make a good H&S adviser - given that H&S is very much around corporate strategic thinking and leadership.