Posted By CRT Peter, in my humble opinion, i would simply ask the HSE to clarify, i would be suprised if this came from an inspector, more likely someone who "weeds" out and deals with accidents not considered necessary for investigation from an inspector. Even HSE inspectors cant ask you to discipline someone for breaking your own rules. My motto, if in doubt, ask, HSE or LA inspectors aren't going to descend on you and give you a hard time just because you have questioned something. Colin

Posted By Martyn Hendrie If I were an inspector and was challenged on this I would quote HASAWA Section 2 - provision of adequate SUPERVISION. The breach being that the company deemed the rule necessary and then did not supervise the workforce to see that the rule was observed.

Posted By Martyn Hendrie Peter, If I were an inspector (which I am not)and for the purposes of this thread we could not settle the matter by discussion. Hypothetically of course Ultimately, I could prosecute you. At which point it would be for you to prove that you had adequate supervision not me to prove that you did not. (Section 40 HASAWA) On the face of it you have a rule; you did not enforce the rule; and an accident occurred.

Posted By Rob T I've heard it all now! What absolute rubbish. If you want to start quoting law then at least get it right. Just because a company makes it's own rules doesn't mean that the HSE can enforce those. The quotes of HASAWA are completely used in the wrong context. Unbelievable!!!

Posted By Martyn Hendrie Rather than saying rubbish and unbelievable can you set out why my hypothetical scenario is not correct. I did not say that this was the likely outcome of of the situation as described I was responding to the question regarding what an inspector could use to back up his position if challenged. HASAWA requires employers to establish precautions based on what is "reasonably practicable" and extension of that process is the MHSW regs requirement for Risk assessment. If an employer deems that a rule or precaution is necessary to meet his duties under HASAWA of MHSWR then failure to comply with that rule/ precaution may be a breach of legislation. If an employer fails to implement his own rules/ precaution it can be argued (the point I was making) that he is also in breach of legislation, as he has already recognised the need for the precaution. I do not believe that my reference to HASAWA Section 40 is incorrect - the burden of proof would lie with the employer. If you disagree please put forward a reasoned argument.

Posted By ddraigice These arguments have little merit really. I dont believe an inspector would insist that people be disciplined for any behaviour, not least ones that don't really fall under legislation. If it is true, or it is an overzealous complaints officer or HSAO (which it would seem to be as an inspector would visit the site), just ask them to clarify why and if they still insist and can give no basis for this then just talk to their line manager and ask for clarification. At the end of the day (which it nearly is) its up to the company's HR as to what punishment (if any) is metred out for a misdemeanor or even more serious incident and not HSE. It's not HSE's policy, there is no legal backup for this so just ask them to clarify and lets move on.

Posted By Martyn Hendrie Peter, To clarify things, if you are referring to my contributions as being OTT. I agree with most contributors that this should and would never go beyond a discussion with the inspector concerned. However, you did ask the question "What regulation would you have quoted to back up your opinion?" I gave an opinion, you then asked "And if the employer disputed this, what action would you then take?" I gave an answer that indicated the logical conclusion if both sides could not agree a mutually acceptable position. At no time was I suggesting that the conclusion to the scenario set out in your original posting would or should end up in court.