Posted By RichardJ In our new factory, there are several new employees that won't wear ear protection and eye protection when grinding and other tasks despite the company making it mandatory. We also provide portable weld fume extraction units for welders but again they are more likely to be used to dry their hair than prevent clouds of fumes going up into the air. I think its a case that these employees have been used to no real health and safety regime in their previous employment. The manufacturing manager and safety rep keep on at them but nothing changes. Is it a case of a verbal warning, written warning and then out the door? or is there something we are missing. If there is an accident are the company liable?

Posted By Amanda Richard I agree with Chris. These employees have a duty under HASAWA as does the employer. It is difficult to get the hearts and minds on board, however after gentle reminders you sometimes need to get formal and discipline a few people. As Chris has rightly said there may come a day they try to make a claim for ill health etc, as they never the see fault with themselves.

Posted By KS-TI Been here in the past with same thing, two members of staff who had worked for the company I joined for 17 years had the attitude of nothing has happened to me in 17 years of this trade so I do not need safety equipment. The problem we had is younger members of staff seen this and themselves did not want to wear the PPE. The younger lads got took on board quite quickly after being informed they risked disciplinary action as they breached H&S Law and company policy. In the end we disciplined both older members with one not listening and further recieving warnings until he was dismissed. Everybody soon fell into line after that. However the major problem was the safety culture present still did not improve and a hatred was developed for safety and the personnel involved. It has took 6 months start to try and rebuild this back up. We have now learned by mistakes and I believe in an education approach, i.e. sufficient safety training to educate them on why we need PPE. Hope this helps. Regards KS

Posted By David Whaley Richard, The previous comments are valid. However, with the introduction of the new regulations several of our departments are hearing protection zones and we had similar problems. I found that putting training sessions that not only said you have to use hearing protection but why, I went into detail about how hearing works why we need to use hearing protection and the effect of not using the protection. This was backed up by training the supervisors on how the hearing protection should be worn and ensuring they understood it was their responsibility to ensure the protection was worn and worn correctly. Each department also completes a log book weekly to show they have checked that hearing protections is being used correctly. The above does work, it takes a little time but with the combination of awareness and supervision you get there in the end. If you have any people who still refuse then the disciplinary route is the only option. David

Posted By Paul Oliver Inform, Instruct and Train. If these steps don't work then you need to instigate formal proceedings. These are the workers who reckon nothings happened to them over the years. But once they retire they will be the first ones to put claims in for noise induced hearing loss and other ill health effects associated following their belligerence in the work place. Paul

Posted By Merv Newman I'm all for behavioural safety with recognition/rewards/reinforcement. But I also acknowledge that there are some really pig-headed people out there who just defy you. Old hands have a really big influence on newbies. If one or two of the older workers haven't got with it then it is behaviorally easier for the newbies to copy the bad examples than the good. local supervision do all in their power (although some do give up too easily) To change behaviours but if they are not visibly and publicly backed up by ALL senior managers then it goes down the pan. Verbal, written warnings are not worth the paper the are written on. Nor is suspension. All have very short term effects. I like the programmes outlined by David Whaley, et al, provided that good results also get some reaction from management if they see progress. Positive management reaction for even small improvements is, in itself Reward/Recognition/Reinforcement, starting with the supervisor. Unfortunately the tradition is that bad results or behaviour will/could get you a good kicking. Getting it right, or at least righter, gets you nothing. Unfortunately (again) managers and supervisors don't really know how to recognise such improvements. When was the last time (apart from the annual interview) when your boss, or any boss, told you you were doing a good job ? They need training. See your local supplier. Notwithsanding all of the above : For some people it has to be the door. One good example backed up by well communicated legal reasons could do a power of good. And make you feel so much better about going to work on Monday mornings. Merv

Posted By Merv Newman Pete, Dead right (or is "dead" the right word in this context ?) Supervisors and managers seem quite able to ignore "low level" unsafe behaviour (gloves, safety glasses ...) which will, probably, only develop into minor injuries (cuts, dust in the eye ...) They do not seem to realise that there is such a thing as a "company safety culture" which could serve to save lives even in extreme circumstances. Forget BP for the moment. They had/have the wrong safety culture. It would seem. Merv Merv

Posted By Pete48 Merv, yes it is sad to see an old friend get it wrong but on reflection...... Wherever it works well, it works because line managers are not frightened by safety, they just get on and manage it. Apologies to Richard for this diversion in the thread.

Posted By darren booth to those who have posted advice to sack the individual: you are talking nonsense! what kind of instruction, training and supervision has been provided to the problem employees? reading between the lines, it seems that the supervisor/ foreman/ manager are all desparately lacking in the necessary skills or are simply negligent. sacking and disciplining people should be the last option, and only when you have exhausted every other avenue, or you will have an unfair dismissal case to deal with.it is not the reps job to go on at an employee, it the employers responsibility and you will be liable if an accident occurs. the types of ppe and the reasons for its use should have been covered at the employees induction.

Posted By Pete48 May I respectfully ask that the original posting is read carefully. The poster clearly states that these are NEW employees and that these new employees are not following existing company safety rules. It also states clearly that both the management and the "safety rep" have spoken to these employees about their unacceptable behaviour. By all means advise on checking that all the usual stuff has been done but if it has, what would you do next? That I think is what the poster is asking. Thus, I think, the responses about disciplinary action are valid. Of course the type of action is dependant on the detail of the case but there are many employers who would not hesitate to dismiss employees for flagrant safety violations especially during their probationary period.

Posted By AlB "Sack them" is NOT a typical management knee-jerk reaction. The employer has provided ample protective measures, has been trying to get the individuals to wear the correct PPE and use the equipment provided, but still there are people who will not comply. It's now a case of protecting the business and get rid of the bad eggs. If a HSE inspector walked in and saw this going on, I'm sure he wouldn't say "that's fine, just keep educating them and it'll be OK". They'd get their book out and serve a notice or two. If one of these individuals suffers an injury or falls ill, you can bet your bottom dollar that they will make a claim, and they are quite likely to succeed. Reduce the risk to the company and move them on.

Posted By MAK Richard, as we all know, if we went about sacking everyone who breached H&S rules, we (H&S) reps would have nothing to do. While I dont work in a manufacturing environment, is it possible for your company to seek out a particularly relevant presentation to offer these invincible he-men? for example, There are people who have been severly and permanently disfigured by being injured at work, some of these people now deliver presentations. There will be other presentations out there, which show simluated injuries also. A more grpahic demonstration sometimes can turn the most fearless of persistant offenders a tad grey. However, a carefully selected presentation alone is not the solution but it may be a start to chip away this culture that is already prevalent here. The operatives themselves obviously have gained some useful skills as well as their bad habits, so the challenge is on for you to find a way to keep them and keep them safe, in spite of themselves. The disciplinary procedure really is a last resort.

Posted By John Murgatroyd Given the amount of people paying no attention to the companies rules instant dismissal would be risky. http://www.dti.gov.uk/files/file11510.pdf

Posted By John Murgatroyd Presumably there were various risk assessments to the various jobs. Also, presumably, the risk of physical violence from the workers outweighed the risk of injury claims from those [who may be] injured. I believe it is called "pansy management" ?

Posted By William I think Merv is right when he says that the old hands can have a significant influence over newbies, I took charge of a offshore rigging job a couple of weeks ago and had a couple of dinosaurs, one was 62 years old (twice my age) and the other in his late 40's. They did everything they could to undermine my authority, one even suggested hanging a chain block using string! I found the softly softly approach did not work, so I had to resort to a much more aggressive manner and raise my voice to get my message across. Then at the end of last week I had an interview for a HSEQ position and most reading this would have had a heart attack if they witnessed what I had when suggesting what improvements I could make during a site visit and PPE use was the big one. I think it has to be a mixture of education and obligation, try to educate people on why they need PPE and also of their legal obligations.

Posted By Merv Newman Richard respectfully disagree. Management attitude to safety is very often the big problem. Cure that and you cure most (not all) problems. One of my first jobs as a consultant (junior) was when we were bidding for a large contract ; plants in the UK, Holland and France. With my boss we toured one plant with site management and the European Safety Manager. At lunch the ESM asked me (the junior) "Merv, what's our biggest problem ?" Hasty swallowing of sandwich. Merv : "The first workshop we went to had a sign on the door about hearing protection being required" ESD : "Right. And no-one there was wearing them" Merv : Pause for dramatic effect, then - "Neither were we" Silence. Big smile on face of Merv's boss. We got the contract. Merv

Posted By Robert K Lewis Alan I rather suspect that Richard does not, as Merv suggests, have competent management or other supervision. The first rule in these situations is that operatives will only do those things that supervision allow them to do. In the event of an accident the first question is going to be "how did you attempt to correct the problem?" The answer here is very little. Perhaps the answer here is to start looking towards disciplining the supervision not the employees. I have to ask myself whether the people currently there have my confidence. Having said that Richard does need to review the content of his inductions and early job training. Something is sadly awry and the SMS does not seem to have real committment from the top. Bob

Posted By John Murgatroyd You have to be very careful about sacking people now. I think that about the only sackable offence is thumping the MD after he found you with his wife in a compromising position while you were supposed to be working abroad, and driving the company car while smoking, using the mobile and with a blindfold on.....all at the same time. http://www.dti.gov.uk/files/file11510.pdf Sacking a person before going through the specified procedures could be costly....especially if the practice you sacked him/her for had been accepted and not commented on for a while. Which it obviously has.

Posted By Merv Newman As an addition to my previouse postings. In sixteen years as a plant HSE manager I only had one LTI. The 1st line supervisor got a written warning for not having taken necessary precautions. The injured person received all our sympathy. March 5th 1984. 3.30h Monday morning. IP André Ligier. Fracture of the mastoid bone. Supervisor Jean Berthod. It sticks in the memory. As it should. Merv

Posted By Merv Newman Morning John, Look at the date. We were still in the era of "kick 'em again if they're still breathing" safety. The supervisor had noticed a patch of ice on the pathway and had only given a verbal warning "watch it there" 30 minutes later, on the return journey André slipped on the ice. The supervisor got the main kicking. But so did I and so did the plant manager. It was only after I had left that plant and that company that I learned that it was more effective to "stroke" before than to "kick" after Merv