Posted By stephen smith Hello everyone. I would like you all to think about the above question. I see quite regularly postings for basic H&S assessment formats, powerpoint presentations, etc & this causes me to ask the question, are these requests from persons who have not the discipline to research and then refine and develop those formats, information and documents. your thoughts on this friday regards stephen

Posted By CFT Possibly but not always; at the end of the day how do you know? I suppose if you have the time to help then it is down to the individual request. Me, I ignore 'me too's' I would ignore the ones such as "can I see your H&S policy to compare" and sample RA's; PP's don't really see a problem with, nor do I with a basic pro-forma for instance say HAZ OP S's or JSA's, sometimes I believe the person needs the template to work from without the information contained within, it is the latter I would have concerns over. CFT

Posted By Peter MacDonald But it's a public access forum......?

Posted By Merv Newman Ray, yes, it has been done to death but I would like to reiterate my position : I won't give out documents but I will advise on how to produce such documents. I often ask plant managers to write their own, personal, safety policy. I don't give examples as I want to see their own words/feelings. Those who do it best are those who sweat about it. It concentrates the mind. Same thing with "me toos". I don't give. I advise. Isn't that what they pay me the big money for ? Merv

Posted By Ali I believe it's about sharing information, best practice etc, which the HSE will applaud. Of course, the info should then be tailored to suit individual requirements otherwise it will have little value. I would have hoped that this tailoring would be carried out by someone competent , but not necessarily by the same person asking for the info. Ali

Posted By Tabs Let me think .... If no-one told me anything as I was learning, if my managers told me "find out for yourself", if no-one wrote books on the subject, or taught at University, would I know as much (?) as I know now ...?? We tut very loudly at firefighters not being allowed to use ladders - at headteachers making kids wear goggles for conkers ... We can't expect people to just know things, sharing knowledge, tips, systems, forms and experience is EXACTLY what my profession is about. It is up to us to make sure that those asking understand HOW and WHEN to use them - if we want to share them (no-one has yet compelled me to share anything, I do it when I think I should/can). If we want to progress, we need to be inclusive yet careful. Not everyone thrown into the H&S position has the opportunity to go off and do a diploma - or even a certificate sometimes. Yet they still have their colleagues interests at heart. Continue to help each other, it is worthy.

Posted By Tabs "Yes we all learn from others but this perhaps to be on a personal basis rather than the impersonal web forums." Nothing says you have to be impersonal when sharing. When sending a template, one can explain it - and ask if the recipient understands it, and even offer help ... The initial question posted -if answered in the negative- would mean the closing of this forum, because we are not allowed to be exclusive or discriminating (under the Charity Commission terms and conditions - see members forum threads). Good question, I guess, but unlikely to change how the forum operates. If any of your advice is ambiguous or has a potential to harm rather than help, explain it. As I go about my job, I never just impose things in the workplace. I explain them and justify them.

Posted By Pete48 Yes we should share, subject to our professional ethics and codes. Remember this is a public access forum, therefore anyone who takes any advice from this forum at more than face value should not rely upon it as anything more. It could be given by someone with no affiliation to IOSH whatsoever. Also we should not assume that anyone posting for advice is anything other than a member of the public looking for information.

Posted By AF I am all for sharing ideas, exchanging information, obtaining relevant downloads, etc, etc I do agree, what is best for one company is not necessary the best way for your own company......! After all, the company is employing you and paying you on the basis of your experience, knowledge and qualifications, not on the basis that you can plagarise someone elses work.......!

Posted By Tabs Arran, "I frequently see the outcome this form/document sharing culture were the majority of sub-contractor risk assessments and method statements are poor and often fall outside the scope of work being undertaken." What did they have before? And do you correct them? Do you select your suppliers after a due diligence of their systems, competencies and methodology? I cannot see how the route they use to obtain paperwork influences even a tiny bit compared to being refused the work because they don't understand what they are doing. Refuse them the job, and they will have the impetus to learn. "Just as plagiarism is frowned upon in higher education, should we also be confronting this issue in our professional activities and is it ethical to issue documents for others to use when you are not aware of the competence of the person using your documents, their supervision and how these documents are going to be used?" Rubbish, we are not at school now - I actually give my colleagues the answers to problems if I can. I encourage toolbox talks (akin to cheat notes) I put out briefing documents full of information that my managers can't be bothered to research. I am not a teacher, I am an adult trying to get people to understand things that might save their life. I have to be able to rely on other adults to do similar. I cannot guarantee competency of those using my documents, no - but that doesn't mean I should remain mute when asked for help. But you can feel free to. And when did a document hurt someone - can you explain the risk please? Incompetent person with no document -v- incompetent person with document from competent person ? (document might even give some hints as to what is needed) "Also there is the issue of copyright." I left school in 1978. Would you like to guess how many times I or any of those people I have ever worked with have ever been taken to task over copyright? Even if it exists, has it ever been enforced within my 29 years of work life? If I am sharing my own work, technically my employer could claim copyright, but they would be wasting money. Nice topic this, and some good exercise for the grey matter ... probably not going to change anyone's opinions though, but entertaining.

Posted By Arran Linton - Smith Tabs, Are you suggesting that plagiarism, competence and copyright are not matters that we should worry about in the course of our duties as Chartered Safety and Health Practitioners?

Posted By Tabs Arran, in terms of documents such as risk assessment templates, a permit to work template, or even powerpoint presentations, I doubt the currency of 'worry'. As a professional, I would not pass to Tom the work of Harry, unless I knew Harry had expressed a disinterest in pursuit of copyright (I will never pass to you a British Standard for example, but would quite happily share with you a risk assessment form designed by one of my friends who has knowledge that I have already shared it more than once). I had hoped I had explained my thoughts on competency - a forum will never be able to solve that issue, but it doesn't need to. We have the option of to share or not to share, and I did ask you to explain the risk you perceive. :-) Plagiarism? There is nothing wrong with plagiarism - if there was, we would have to erase history, burn books, destroy corporate memory and start each day as a blank. The next time you change jobs, will you walk in and throw away all the systems and paper work that was done by your predecessor? I won't (unless they were really bad). Being a Chartered Member means that I have the experience and the knowledge required for that particular grade. Funnily enough, in my case, that means I also recognise a need for networks to help others come on, and that those at the start of their career might be alone and struggling. My 'worry' is that they are left there to make bad decisions and poor systems. Look at the "IOSH Members Forum" and you will see that I have challenged the President of IOSH to provide a member-only forum for discussions of that nature. She is unable to help. So, we have to continue here instead. Bob - your argument about things going to consultancies, and being sold on ... so what? If you don't want to help them, don't. I never send to consultancies, or to those people who appear to be too lazy to look things up. Look at my posts and I seldom even give links, I give website names instead. Occasionally though someone wants help, and there is no harm in providing it. Again I ask you - how dangerous is a template exactly?

Posted By Steve Cartwright I'm with you tabs. Some people would call it mentoring. Did you know you can actually claim CPD points for mentoring. One of the critisms the IOSH Branches had following a recent survey was that not enough Chartered Members acted as mentors. There is actually a campaign within the branch network to recruite members to act as mentors.

Posted By Tabs Philip - sorry, yes you are right if the user is passing something off as their own. The more common, day to day use of the word plagiarism tends to mean 'using' someone elses work. Copying. Again it comes down to what you are willing to share. Don't share something that you don't want to. I have used other people formats / templates and no-one has asked me the providence of it - nor have i offered any when I forward things

Posted By Tabs Something has just occurred to me ... If it is so bad to offer templates and documents to people that you cannot gauge the competency of, why do HSE, IOSH, Barbour, Consult GEE, and multiples of others do it? I would wager that some of here on this forum are better qualified and better experienced to do so than they are. After all, we are doing the job, not writing about it :-)

Posted By Sally My organisation doesn't pay me to 'develop competence and be innovative'. It pays me to provide solutions to health & safety issues that comply with legislation and protect the workforce. When I look at what I do in a week it would take me twice as long if i didn't use forms, presentations, guidance notes etc that others have started I'm a very experienced H&S adviser (started the year the six pack came out) but still rely on others to share their expertise

Posted By Merv Newman Sally, May I take exception to your first sentence ? I feel quite strongly that part of the job of an H&S person is to develop competence in the people they are guiding. I have just spent the day showing a group of managers how to do safety audits, how to actually SEE what they walk past everyday. (second group tomorrow) I am trying to develop their competence in managing safety. That IS my job. I can't be holding their hand and doing it for them every day of the week. Innovation ? Well there is nothing innovative about this week's training. I've been doing roughly the same thing for the last 20 odd years. But, I'm a consultant (last week I couldn't even spell the word. Now I are one) I move from plant to plant. So the same old rhubarb is always new to them. However, I did work (as you do) for about 12 years as plant safety. i soon found out just how innovative you have to be. Last years safety plan or programme just ain't no good for next year. People get bored and lose interest. You have to keep coming up with something new. Innovative. Lastly, and I do apologise if I have upset you, Keeping up with the legislation and advising managers of their responsibilities is a small, though essential, part of our job. Motivating them and employees and developing their competence and commitment to H&S is the most essential part. And so (dramatic roll of drums, thunder and lightening, hail of rain) back to the plot. I don't supply templates, forms or procedures. Everyone of my contributions to this outrageous and egregious chat show is designed (apart from the odd recipe) (well, even them to be honest) to guide others to be more competent in their jobs. Trust me. I'm a consultant. (did I already say that ?) Merv, Limoges. Sun shining, 10°C Enjoy.

Posted By Bob Shillabeer Just a thought, where would we have been if the first person to get a competence decided to keep it to himself, Probably he would still be a lone voice in the wilderness and many people would have died. Please can we get off this high plane of snobbery we seem to be falling into. Without other professionals being prepared to share thier knowledge and experience I know I would still be a dumb idiot doing things the way I thought was right and just hoping I would not get hurt doing it.

Posted By Pete Longworth Bob Shillbeer - Spot on. The whole tone of this thread is "We are competent - Don't you bone idle mere mortals bother us in our ivory towers because you are all too ignorant to understand what we do" How can someone using information freely given be construed as plagiarism? How did that ever get into this debate? Tabs is right - if you don't like sharing information - don't do it, just don't criticise others who do wish to share.

Posted By TBC No - keep all your info to yourself and then nobody else will have the opportunity to learn. If somebody needs any help - give them it no matter what.