Posted By Dave Wilson Client / CDMC produce pre tender H&S Plan PC develops into Site H&S Plan and gives the info to CDMC who compiles H&S File for Client see for free info http://www.citb.co.uk/he...cdmregulations/guidance/

Posted By Carolc David, Is it possible there is confusion between the Project Health and safety plan and the Health and Safety File, which we used to call the O&M Manual? Carol

Posted By Rodger Alan Ker I am sorry to have to write this, but if what you state is correct I feel I must. If a CDMC doesn't know that he is responsible for the the production and delivery of the HEALTH AND SAFETY FILE to the client upon completion of the contract, he shouldn't be allowed out on his own! Rodger Ker

Posted By Arran Linton - Smith David, Rodger and Tony, If you turn to page 23 in the L144 ACOP, Paragraph 106 clearly states that: "CDM co-ordinators must prepare a suitable health and safety file, or update it - if one already exists".

Posted By Mal Guys, Arran is quite right, it is the duty of the CDMC to prepare the health and safety file. Regards, Mal

Posted By Ron Hunter There is an important distinction that may be at the root of Dave's problem. The CDM Regulations are (IMHO) written too much around a "Project" perspective. There are I believe instances where it is neither essential or indeed desirable to have a 3rd Party limited engagement consultant updating the Client's Management Systems as they relate to the H&S File already held for the Structure. I would not expect (for example) a CDM-C to be updating the Asbestos Register at the end of a Project (an essential part of any H&S File "system", and an area where I wouldn't expect them to have the necessary competencies. Neither would I expect them to be ensuring that the complete drawing set for the structure was updated to reflect an "as built" perspective. There are a great many non-notifiable Projects which will themselves have a significant impact on the existing File - sometimes more impact than a Notifiable Project (e.g. alterations to services)! To limit the duty as regards Files to a "here today, gone tomorrow" duty holder is surely then (from a realistic perspective) incorrect and contrary to the spirit and intention of CDM? No direspect to all the CDM-Cs out there doing a good job!

Posted By JasonGould Have to agree with Toby and Neil here. The CDM-C has the duty to prepare the H&S file, yes that part is obvious and is stated in black and white all over the regs and acop. The PC has the duty to provide the information along with everyone else involved in the project. The CDM-C in his discussions with the client will decide on when and how they want that information e.g. in large build environments with more than several design team disciplines they may need to have more control on the issuing of information to other designers as the project progresses thus the CDM-C may have more input. On the other hand some projects ill only require that information is provided at the end of the job by the PC. It all depends on the complexity and variance of the projects which is what the CDM-C will access and discuss with the client. The CDM-C will and has to ensure the file is suitable before passing onto the client and that key safety information has not been missed or masked by surplus non required information or otherwise will create a easy index to such information. Every job is different so there is no one universal way though some would want it that way. As Neil has quite rightly pointed out, this is mentioned in Para 261. Now the improtant word here for me is "in some cases" such as design and build" To me indicates that where there may be a number of different design diciplines/specialist contractors etc, the PC is best placed to obtain and assemble the information required. It is not just restricted to the design and build jobs so dont be suprised as a PC if you are requested to do the above. Lets be clear here, Some PC's are trying to slope shoulders in regards of passage/compilation of information required for the H&S file whilst others are quite aware of what is required from them and in tune with CDM regulations.

Posted By David Matthew Thank you all for the responses so far it seems to have struck a nerve. I believe that we have a duty to provide information within our control to the CDM-C such as O&M manuals, as-laids etc so that they can compile the H&S file. What seems to be increasingly happening is that we're issued with a contents list by the CDM-C for us to poupulate several copies of the H&S file which they just pass on to the Client as if they've done it. I went to a local construction safety group meeting earlier in the year where a CDM-C was giving a talk. He again stated that they didn't put the H&S file together citing that it was for the PC to do as it was in the rates. Seems that some CDM-Cs are getting money for old rope. David

Posted By Robert K Lewis Rodger et al Para 256 of the acop is clear - The CDMC must prepare, amend, review or add to the H&S File, these are active verbs and thus he should do. The word "ensure" created the area of doubt in the 94 regulations and was removed such that the duty was transparent and placed on the CDMC. CDMC with client, designers and contractors identifies information required, these then provide the infromation for the CDMC to construct the file. Simple, buit only for notifiable works. Bob

Posted By Arran Linton - Smith David, I suspect that your CDM-C on your project may not have correctly assessed time involved with the task of preparing the H&S File and therefore the original fee quoted may not have the resources within it to complete this task. If you are still being pressed by the CDM-C to prepare the H&S File one solution could be to submit a separate CDM-C fee proposal to your client in order that you have an opportunity to take over and complete this task. I am aware of a hotel where the sale failed to complete because of the lack of a H&S File, therefore it is critical that your client gets this document by whatever means.

Posted By Lance Jason I couldn't agree more. Lance

Posted By Lance Martyn, The format for the H&S File should be communicated to you in the Pre-Construction Information before you are appointed. This format should have been discussed and agreed between the client and CDM-C. Also, I would expect the CDM-C to set a format following the requirements of para 263 of the ACOP. This would not seem unreasonable? Remember not to confuse the Building Regulations Log Book / maintenance manual and the H&S File. If these start getting combined you run the risk of loosing the important H&S information. Lance

Posted By JasonGould Time to put this one to bed for me. Others can argue all they want over the meanings of one word or sentence so lets look at the industry guidance as too many people are dwelling stuff. Funny enough I hated the industry guidance on first read but after a couple of reads it is actually very very good if read very very slowly and hopefully dispells the confusion on the issue. Here is the text from the Principal Contractor industry guidance on CDM2007 relating to the H&S file:- Whilst it is the CDM co-ordinator’s duty to compile the health and safety file, there is a duty on the principal contractor to provide promptly any information which is reasonably required. It is good practice to agree the format and draft layout of the health and safety file as early as possible and, if possible, before starting work. Much of the information required will need to be provided by contractors, sub-contractors or suppliers and it is easier to get that information whilst they are on site rather than chasing for information at the end of the project when the subcontractors and suppliers may have left the site and prove difficult to contact or motivate. Thought should be given to the structure of the file for instances such as practical completion of part of the work during the overall contract. In this case, consideration needs to be given to compiling sections of the health and safety file to give to the client should they commission further work, such as shop fitting. There may also be instances where a project has one initial client but there may be several people requiring a file for their section. A developer carrying out roadworks which form part of the development but are eventually adopted by a local authority is an example of this; a stand-alone section of the file needs to be prepared to be eventually handed on to the local authority that adopts the road. In a similar way, developers of multi-unit retail parks needs to consider that retail units are likely to be handed over for fit-out before the whole contract is completed and hence each unit will need a separate file ready for its practical completion. Items which could be reasonably expected to be required in a health and safety file are shown in Annex C. Now here is the CDM-C industry guidance Text relating to the file:- The CDM co-ordinator has to prepare a suitable health and safety file. The content of the file must be specific. It does not have to be a complex document in its own right. The purpose of the file is to provide easy access to health and safety-related information in the future. It can be a short signposting or contents style file that enables location of the information for future construction work or maintenance. The issues for the CDM co-ordinator in connection with the file are: • early discussion with the client about their needs and expectations • an early assessment of any files or material already in the client’s possession • early agreement on the format, style and location when completed • an understanding by the client of who will use the file and how • the number of copies to be produced • to ensure that early discussions with the client determine the scope, or the need for incorporation of earlier files or other client information • to advise the client and their team so that appropriate requirements for file information delivery are set out in the appointments of other duty holders • to make sure that duty holders know what to provide and when • to determine with the client how they wish to incorporate any asbestos-related information into a project file • to advise on the usefulness of the file and whether the client wants any links with building manuals, operation and maintenance manuals • to advise and assist the client with file updating needs and procedures (including the requirement for the client to keep the file up to date with information that could emerge from later projects, including non-notifiable ones) • material should not be included unless it is directly relevant to managing health and safety and its contents are accurate and project-specific • recommended good professional practice is that the CDM co-ordinator should hold a copy of the file in addition to the one formally handed over to the client • the suggested generic requirements for a health and safety file are provided in paragraph 263 of the ACoP • the focus should be on including those issues that are unusual, difficult to manage or are not likely to be known by a competent contractor. The CDM co-ordinator has the duty to prepare the health and safety file but the principal contractor may assist or lead the compilation process. It is possible that the principal contractor could be appointed or contracted by the CDM co-ordinator to assist with the preparation of the file, or for these arrangements to be clearly agreed with the client and included in all contracts or appointments. These would be contractual arrangements and not a means of transferring the legal responsibility for the file, which rests with the CDM co-ordinator. Now if anyone is suggesting that the CDM-C is going to let the PC and others just throw information in whatever formats they want at him, and that he is then going to have to change all that into a format that he and the client originally wanted, he is mad. Most people have requirements when information is coming their way, the CDM-C is no different than others. I think its called the pecking order in slang e.g. Client with advise from CDM-C will call the shots in most cases however in some cases, the PC will be in best position to call the shots e.g. see para 261. This is all usually agreed in the early part of the contract e.g. either the pre-construction information or the tender documents will include the H&S file / information requirements including formats, structure, timings etc etc. Fool be the CDM-C or Client whom dos not specify this strongly enough and just demand a H&S file of the PC at the end of a job. Remember Co-operation, Communication and Co-ordination Like everyone keeps saying, this is all usually agreed in the early part of the contract e.g. either the pre construction information or the tender documents will include the H&S file/information requirements including formats, structure etc. Now let me ask 3 questions, 1. After reading, the regs, acop and industry guidance, what do you think the HSE wanted, when they passed the duty of the H&S file from the PC to the CDM-C? 2. After reading legal obligations of the CDM-C, is it fair to say that the CDM-C should then have a say in what format, structure, timings etc the information is presented to them as long as they have done it early enough and in a clear concise manner to avoid any misunderstandings?. 3. How many times does the discussion between the CDM-C and Client actually take place relating to the file and whos advise will/should the Client take? Jason

Posted By Mitch Robin, Is it competence or interpretation given that there is a 12 month period allwed by the new reg's or is competence and (mis)interpretation one and the same thing? Mitch

Posted By Mitch Ron, If you are the Client and you are happy with that process, my interpretation is that that does comply in that you have agreed (forcefully!) with the CDM-C the format of the H&S file

Posted By Mitch You wouldn't be the Ron we love if you weren't

Posted By JasonGould The industry guidance states almost the same as in Ireland. I quoted the section from both the CDMC and PC in rewlation to the file however IOSH mods have had to remove the thread as it was a copywright document. All I suggest at this stage is for those whom are unclear on this issue is to read the Regs, acop and industry guidance slowly.

Posted By Ron Hunter Well I guess we're all firmly put in our place now, eh? End of discussion thread.

Posted By Mitch A positive response there, in the spirit of the forum, from the mass debater which brings us back to, http://www.iosh.co.uk/in...iew&forum=1&thread=36490 Nuff said kemo sabi Lager and kebab tonight methinks