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Posted By Tracey C
Hi All,
I wonder if any of you have come across the following and how did you deal with it:
We have a member of staff who is refusing to travel to any training sessions as we have properties around the UK we try to pick a central location. This employee is saying that she does not like travelling in peoples cars, won't drive on the motorway and does not travel on public transport as she has panic attacks.
Any ideas?
Thanks
T
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Posted By Merv Newman
A refusal of safety training, suitably documented, is a good reason for dismissal.
An untrained person is, by definition, incompetent.
Mind you, chauffeur-driven transport could be arranged. If you want to keep her.
Merv
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Posted By Neil R
Sounds like a load of rubbish to me, how does she get to work? The employer has a legal duty to provide information, instruction and training. If shes refusing to attend training courses then disiplinary action should be put in place. You have offered training as close as possible, i assume you have also offered transport to and from venue. You can't do anymore.
If these issues are real (i.e panic attacks and fear of cars) perhaps she needs medical help rather than training.
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Posted By Tracey C
Thanks for that guys. Yes we have even offered a driver to take her there but she refuses to be driven in other peoples cars. Over the last couple of months we have had to take the training to her but it is very expensive when dealing with outside training companies.
I have asked for a doctors note to support her claims but that still does not solve the problem.
Thanks for the response much appreciated.
Tx
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Posted By MR97
Have you offered defensive or advanced driving training to build their confidence on the motorway?
I know this will be a long way round but will she drive on A roads, travel in taxis or fly?
Could you allow them the extra travel time?
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Posted By Smiff
I would fully expect to be out of a job if I refused to do ANYTHING reasonable, and if I refused to do ALL the things I didn't like I wouldn't even get to the office in the morning. Your employee either has a serious problem or is being downright difficult, either way the issue is HR not H&S.
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Posted By LMR
This lady may have a variety of reasons for panic attacks when travelling in the vehicles of others or travelling on public transport. I too have similar challenges in life! panic attacks are a debilitating and very real medical condition with a doctors note they can be construed as a disability if long term and not improving.
I know a lot of people who will not drive on motorways (any age and any gender with and without disabilities) and it is possible to find a route avoiding motorways - it may be a longer route but they are available (try RAC or AA or google and move the blue travel line away from motorways).
Ensure that she has class 1 business cover and offer to cover her fuel expenses as a reasonable adjustment or hold the course nearer to her location so others travel and do that on rotation.
From what i read your lady is not refusing the training; she is refusing to put herself in a position which to her is dangerous and threatening - big difference!
Discuss with her the reasons for her challenges when travelling with other people and ask if she would be prepared to take others with her?
I can fully appreciate any reasons for panic attacks in those situations it has taken me a lot of therapy (on NHS they are that real) to overcome some of the issues but i have a long way to travel yet. It is one of those if you have not been there you cannot understand the sheer terror that is faced.
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Posted By Jean
Tracey
1 Did she declare this on her application/health questionnaire?
2 Did she sign a contract of employment?
3 What does she do when she goes on holiday/goes out on the town/travels with children/partner/goes out in the evening?
4 I would be insisting on medical evidence to support what she is telling you.
5 You might be able to make contact with a phobia counsellor who might be able to assist, if she is willing
6 Does she normally do her job well?
7 Is it such an inconvenience to set up the training near to her base?
8 If she does have to travel, perhaps you could provide her with overnight accommodation. Of course this might present you with problems.
9 Where is Kieran when you need him?
Jean
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Posted By Neil R
LMR I appreciate the severity of a condition such as panic attacks etc, but the post says that she "does not like" travelling in other peoples cars, and as you say motorway driving can be avoided. I don't like getting up at 5.30am every morning but i still do, This woman to me is being obstructive.
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Posted By Merv Newman
LMR, I understand your reasoning but some people will just not accept changes to their daily life style.
The person may seem to be just difficult but she may just want to get on with her job without any modifications.
So, you could fire her for refusing training, suitable documentation to hand of course, or you could make the best of a bad job.
How critical is the training ?
I was once on a "motivation" training course when one of our best and most experienced foremen walked out. "All that psychology, its like being hit on the head with a lump of wood"
He was pretty useless at "people management" (directly responsible for one Lost Time Injury)(the loss of time, not the injury) but a bloody good team manager. His people just produced perfect work - Tools and Dies.
The rest of the class sympathised and suffered the "psychology of motivation". He got (expletived) but kept his job.
So, the same question again : how critical to her job is the proposed training ?
It would also seem to me that your are doing a lot of training. WHY ? Can't your people learn on the job ? Or from each other ?
Nelly, where are you ?
Merv
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Posted By Alan Haynes
Just a thought - does the need to attend traing sessions require her to extend her time away from home? - she may have [very good] personal reasons for not wanting to be away.
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Posted By Tracey C
Hi Merv
At the moment we have had new systems put in and this employee will be working with this system. For some of the training we have sent somebody to her at her site at her desk so she did not need to travel. The training she is being asked to attend is customer service and service for excellence. It is company policy that all employees attend otherwise they would all be dropping out saying they are sick etc. A bit of a open the flood gates for excuses situation.
T
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Posted By Lilian McCartney
I know a few people who have said to me that they wouldn't drive on a road they hadn't been on before and wondered how they ever got anywhere - except with someone else driving!
The situation to your employee is real for her and if you really need her to travel (whether in car/taxi/train etc) then I would (and you've probably tried this anyway) meet with her and discuss what the issues are and the way forward.
I was thinking along the lines of another 'condition' where if we have an employee who comes to us and says they have a drinking problem then we support them while they are taking active steps towards resolving this. However, if they continually turn up drunk, off work drunk etc then its down the HR/dismissal route.
In this case, the main questions are the exact importance of the employee traveling i.e. what traveling their job entails as part of the actual work tasks or is 'just' for training; how this affects other employees (there could be other employees who feel almost the same but have managed to combat their fears); are they willing to get help with this phobia?
Good luck
Lilian
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Posted By Eddie
Without knowing the full details of the actual training requirements, medical condition etc, would it be possible to arrange for the training to be delivered via a computer based training module that would remove the need for her and perhaps others to travel.
I understand the points being made by the "sack her" posters, but dismissals,recruiting, training of new staff etc can be very expensive particularly in the current climate and assuming that the training is the type that can be adapted to CBT this may be a option that could solve the issues being raised.
Eddie
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Posted By John Howells
Hi, I'm relatively new to safety and wondered if it possible that if the lady in question is unable to carry out the training, for whatever reason, her pay scale be altered to accomomdate the un-trained status she would find herself in?
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Posted By bill reilly
how does she commute to work ?
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Posted By John Richards
It's not actually H&S training is it.
Let's face it, it isn't going to kill anyone to not have it.
It's a "company policy" thing.
It may make some members of management ecstatic that they send their guys all over the country to have training that [in many cases] is irrelevant, but it ain't gonna kill anyone to not have it.
This ain't a safety thing [in this case], it's a "management has to have sphericals" thing.
me, I refused to lift "test" pieces in my manual handling training, stating that lifting 20kg onto a bench wasn't "training" but dangerous. When "they" threatened me, I reported them and the training company to HSE because of dangerous practice and improper documentation (no checks on existing health etc).
Personally, I think that refusing to be driven as a passenger in anothers vehicle is perfectly reasonable. Same for [disease spreading] public transport.
This is just a management save-dosh thing isn't it.
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Posted By David Gault
Tracey,
In your posting you ask how others would deal with the situation.
Making the assumption that you wish to retain the member of staff you mention:
1. Talk to them about what they perceive as the limits that their panic attacks put on them. It may well be that they are having some sort of therapy for the panic attacks but that does not help you in a practical sense. So find out exactly what they can and can't do. You will find that the more you talk to them they will come up with suggestions for how to get round the problem themselves.
2. Work with them on where and how they would be willing to travel to training.
3. Also make sure before they set off that the training itself will not be something that is likely to start a panic attack.
4. Assuming they are genuinely suffering from panic attacks and bear in mind, as others have said, it is a genuinely debilitating condition (in fact recent studies have highlighted the possibility that panic attacks are related to a fault in the body's neurological system indicating that suffocation is occurring)treat them with the same respect you would if someone turned up for work with a broken leg and said they couldn't compete in a sprint.
I am writing this from the point of view of a psychologist with an interest workplace psychology by the way.
On the other hand if you don't want to keep them check with your HR dept. about the honesty of their declarations on health.
Feel free to contact me if you wish to discuss it further.
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Posted By Simon Shaw
Assuming this is proper health and safety training, you know the type that you need to do your job safely, then I think you should take account of the Management Regs.
Don't they say something about the training being delivered in normal working hours?
Are you expecting this person to leave home early and arrive home late - this, in my opinion, isn't normal working hours.
Maybe this is the real reason she doesn't want to attend.
If the training isn't real health and safety training then, in my opinion, it will be probably be a waste of time anyway.
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Posted By Kirsty Davies2
SIMPLE AND HONEST SOLUTION IS TO FIND A TRAINING SESSION TO A REASONABLE DISTANCE FROM WORKPLACE.
SACKING IS NOT THE APPROPRIATE ANSWER - THIS WILL CLASSIFY AS UNFAIR DISMISSAL IN THIS CASE.
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Posted By Jean
I'm a little concerned at the negative view of training if it is not health and safety. This is training which relates to common standards required by the organisation. It will almost certainly involve some form of evaluation. If an individual upsets a customer, and the organisation cannot argue that it has provided training, then they may find themselves in some difficulty when it comes to disciplinary matters.
Whether an employee appreciates the value of the training eg the employee who walked out of motivation training, the issue is that the company has decided that employees will receive the training. As an employee you can't pick and choose the training that it suits you to participate in. There would be complete anarchy. If there are different rules being applied to employees, there has to be strong evidence to support the different approaches being adopted.
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Posted By SteveD-M
Not sure if I agree with the last comment Jean it depends on a number of factors to be a clear cut case pf constructive dismissal.
This case you would need to demonstrate that the employer made reasonable adjustments, the terms (And place) of the employee contract and the confirmation of the true nature of the 'illness'.
What you must try to demonstrate that not attending the training would present a fundamental breach of the employees contract of employment.
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Posted By Simon Shaw
Jean
I'm not negative about training in general. I assumed that because you were posting on here it was health and safety training.
The training that I think is a waste of time is the training which appears to be health and safety training but in reality is a waste of time.
I once attended manual handling training for shop-floor staff who handled barrels, machinery parts and similar - the training consisted of the normal PowerPoint presentation and a practical exercise of lifting an empty box from floor onto a table.
That's the training that is a waste of time - it ticks the box "we've trained our employees in manual handling" - but in reality it has very little to do with their actual manual handling activities.
Anyway, getting back to your issue - why don't you hold the training at the employee's site and get the others to travel to her?
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Posted By Ian Futcher
Surely the point here is either the training is required or it isn't (irrespective of whether it is a safety/regulatory requirement or a company/policy/efficiency requirement).
If it isn't required, don't make people attend.
If it is required, people must attend, and if they don't, non-attendance becomes a Management and HR issue; they should decide on the rights and wrongs of the person's reason for non-attendance.
Then I reckon HR will say "Reluctance" to travel for a required course is not an acceptable reason, but diagnosed phobias/panics are an acceptable reason.
I think those decisions now are outside the scope of a Safety Professional.
Ian
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Posted By Ian Futcher
Once on my site, I ran a Noise and Hearing Protection course (slightly too specialist to use Supervisors to perform), for mixed groups of Machine Operators (men and ladies) and Engineers (men). One of the sessions, one lady of the Sapphic persuasion refused to attend as her course happened (totally not deliberately) to contain only her and 5 "hairy-a###d engineers" (her words!) with whom she refused to attend due to her sexuality!
I simply said "OK", and referred the matter to her manager and HR. It was not my place to judge these things; simply to do provide the training sessions I was asked to run.
Eventually after discussions, the lady attended another course - it contained men too. I have no idea what pressure was brought to bear, and it's none of my business.
...well that's my five-eggs worth anyway!
Ian
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Posted By Bossa nova
Well here we go again HR on H&S site, whether the training is H&S. M&S or whatever refusal comes down to company policy/requirements/contracts and breaches are HR.
Crack on or crack up
Casanova
PS you learn something every day Sapphic!!!Goodness put it in spell check
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Posted By Ian Futcher
Since my post apparently contained a word which is deemed unsuitable even though we all have one, hisruite or not, I will repost it with the offending phrase asterisked out completely instead of just the body part. By re-posting it, the reference to the spell-check above will become clear.
Once on my site, I ran a Noise and Hearing Protection course (slightly too
specialist to use Supervisors to perform), for mixed groups of Machine Operators
(men and ladies) and Engineers (men). One of the sessions, one lady of the
Sapphic persuasion refused to attend as her course happened (totally not
deliberately) to contain only her and 5 "*****-**** engineers" (her words!)
with whom she refused to attend due to her sexuality!
I simply said "OK", and referred the matter to her manager and HR. It was not my
place to judge these things; simply to do provide the training sessions I was
asked to run.
Eventually after discussions, the lady attended another course - it contained
men too. I have no idea what pressure was brought to bear, and it's none of my
business.
...well that's my five-eggs worth anyway!
Ian
Regards
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Posted By Bossa nova
Ian,
Got that one but did you mean hirsute?
Combover
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Posted By Ian Futcher
yep - but got so annoyed about it being removed, forgot to do a spell check
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Posted By Kirsty Davies2
What is going on here!
There're a lots of comments here blagging about importance of TRAININIG.
But the fundamental rule for any training when we talk in regards to health and safety is the
'BASIC TRAINING REQUIRED TO PERFORM A TASK SAFELY'
Here we're talking about a simple and basic education on safety rules.
THERE'RE NO SUCH REQUIRMENTS TO EXPECT EMPLOYEES TO TRAVEL HUNDREDS OF MILES TO DO A 'HIGHER EDUCATION COURSE'.
Kristy
P.S. I would advice some honourable friends to take a few lessons in Human Resources. There's a big difference between unfair dismissal and constructive dismissal.
Also - to rest of those - GET SOME BASIC KNOWLEDGE IN H&S, it will surely help.
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Posted By Bossa nova
Very shrill!!
Rollover
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Posted By Smiff
Please don't shout, I'm getting a headache.
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Posted By Kirsty Davies2
A good hearing test or maybe some ear plugs would be beneficial for some people. LOL
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Posted By Kirsty Davies2
P.S. If the remarks of me being 'LOUD' are due to the fact that I am a woman. Then this would definitely a HR issue. LOL
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Posted By Kirsty Davies2
"As a young woman I gained a certain reputation, and any gentleman with any self respect has the obligation to keep his bad reputation intact."
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Posted By Sen Sar
Tracey
I have never come across this situation, thought most people like "away" days training.
You state "This employee is saying that she does not like travelling in peoples cars, won't drive on the motorway" etc
Does not "like" is not the same as panic attack.
I am assuming...I know if you assume...what happens! that by making the posting you are doubtful as to her reasoning.
Maybe a long informal chat with her & HR to get to the botton of it, reassess her need for training (also guessing) but I guess that the need for her to have this training has been identified? or is this blanket training for all staff, if so she could learn from others.
I think this is a difficult one.
Good luck
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Posted By AMelrose
If it's company policy that this lady attend the training (whatever type it be - H&S or not) then HR should be involved as well (if they aren't already).
I'd arrange a meeting with her and HR (with them asking her to bring documentary evidence if possible). Identify what she IS capable of doing rather than what she isn't. e.g. how does she travel at present / who with etc? Would that person be able to take her if the course was closer to home. Would some form of therapy help? (perhaps part-funded by the company). Having the training computer based may help in the short term but doesn't get over the underlying issue - her "fear" of travelling. Helping address that may improve her life dramatically, ignoring the issue (or using a sledgehammer to "crack" her may have the opposite effect...she may even end up housebound, afraid to venture out at all - worse case scenario of course!)
However!
There may come a point where the person refuses help or isn't willing to participate in dialogue. In this case, if she refuses all options and isn't willing to make suggestions herself (that are reasonably practicable) then HR should act accordingly.
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Posted By Tracey C
I would just like to thank you all for giving me some words of wisdom and more to think about. I am however going to see this individual next week and maybe put something together that is suitable for her and the company.
Cheers
T
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Posted By Merv Newman
Tracey,
within the bounds of personal confidentiality, would you be so kind as to come back, maybe next week, and tell us how this one was resolved ?
You may know that I work in France where "refusal of training" is a legitimate ground for dismissal.
And it did happen once to one of our union officials. The other one retired citing "health problems"
(American owned/run company so there was a lot of pressure on "communist" employees)
But I am sure you have more compassion/understanding than that.
Merv
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