Posted By Heather Collins I can't see why there should be an objection to this provided you can put in place a regime where whoever opens the building in the morning makes absolutely certain that the roller shutter is raised fully. Might be an idea to have a check sheet that records that this is done every day in case questions get asked at a later stage. Also it would be a good idea to make sure that in the worst case the roller shutter can be raised quickly without the aid of electrical power from inside. The various guidance docs to the FSO do advise that a roller shutter isn't normally suitable as a final exit but do go on to say they may be acceptable in some low risk situations where there are a small number of people using it who are familiar with the premises and there is an easy manual means of raising the shutter. Not sure if your client would fall into this group? I realise that your situation is more complex than this as you are talking about a shutter OVER an exit not a shutter AS an exit, but just making the point that legislation (and the guidance to the legislation) does not specifically forbid it. It's really down to your FRA - and you knew someone was going to say that didn't you!

Posted By Crim A roller shutter door on its own is not acceptable as a fire exit. A roller shutter can be fixed an an addition to a fire door providing, as Heather states, there is a regime for ensuring the fire exit is available for use while persons are in the building. I have recently fire risk assessed a building with that scenario and advised by the local authority fire safety officer that it was acceptable. The occupier has a nominated person with deputy to open the roller shutter first thing and close last thing at night. Written records are to be kept. So what burglar could get trapped - that's his/her problem!

Posted By DaGuru Yes Martin, thats where I was coming from. Im sure there is ways of securing doors from the outside but could easily be opened from the inside and still offering the desired overall security.

Posted By Crim To those who are against the roller shutter can you provide a better alternative? Please bear in mind that the door in question is the weak link as far as security is concerned. As I say those who are against, in particular, please provide another contribution.

Posted By martin gray1 Just a thought I would have looked at the alarm system and automatic external sensor lighting before thinking of blocking the fire exit. Notices on the outside of the door stating it is alarmed and linked to an automatic police notification center? No expert just my thoughts. MG

Posted By Tanya Boyce We have roller shutters over the fire exits as security. Our on site security staff lift the shutters before the first people arrive and lower them at a set time each evening unless notified that a large piece of wprk is going on outside of hours. All staff are briefed on how to manually raise the rollers and given a chance to practice on an annual basis. All the relevant agencies where happy with this situation.

Posted By Crim Beware key in box! I have experienced the wrong key behing the glass.

Posted By Andy Lightbody Approved Doc B (Building Regs)precludes the use of any form of lock over an escape door and requires that it can be easily openable by a single operation i.e one armed person. That said in reality there are a myriad of locks/security measures adopted as already mentioned above. You do not state what type of door it is i.e single, double, timber or metal. There are various security measures that can be applied to doors to enhance their security without breaching fire escape provision. Hinge bolts, gap guards, concealed hinges etc and will preclude the on-going maintenance and record keeping costs required for a roller shutter. Seek advice from a local security door supplier and also check with your Insurers as to your ultimate solution.

Posted By D. Hilton and further (f) emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened that they cannot be easily and immediately opened by "any person" who may require to use them in an emergency;

Posted By Paragondoors Hello guys, Ideally, a shutter should not be fitted over an emergency exit door. However, where there is a need to do this, or fit additional locking, you must then incorporate a written procedure for locking/unlocking these exits. No emergency exit should be locked if the premises are still occupied. If in doubt, you should check with the relevant authorities.

Posted By shaun mckeever There is nothing wrong with fitting roller shutters over fire doors providing the roller shutters are fixed open whilst the building is occupied and the exit is available. The issue of burglars and other trespassers is a red herring.

Posted By D. Hilton Ultimately, it would be a matter for the Courts to interpret and adjudicate in the event that a tress passer or other suffered injury or loss of life due to the decision to install a roller shutter door at a means of escape. As already stated the legislation is very prescriptive i.e. (f) emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened that they cannot be easily and immediately opened by "any person" who may require to use them in an emergency;. The law does not state "any lawful person" or any person excluding trespasser's etc. Again, could it be demonstrated that it was not reasonably practicable not to install dedicated security doors as described by Ken Taylor above.

Posted By D. Hilton But the legal debate concerning the interpretation of (b) any person in the immediate vicinity of the premises who is at risk from a fire on the premises and f) emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened that they cannot be easily and immediately opened by "any person" who may require to use them in an emergency. may make an interesting addition to case law Consider the existing level of liability from trespass wrt say fragile roofing etc

Posted By D. Hilton In conclusion you are stating that an occupier has no duty of care towards a non lawful visitor when: The OLA states otherwise and The RRO defines a "RELEVANT PERSON" as— any person in the immediate vicinity of the premises who is at risk from a fire on the premises including Fire Service Personnel on a DPI but excluding them when fire fighting. In addition, to my knowledge the provision of roller shutter doors or other impediments fitted to a means of emergency egress is not referenced within the building regs or AD B / TGDB.

Posted By D. Hilton Shaun, in reply: 'He/She has knowledge or reasonable grounds to believe a danger exists......(Danger of fire perhaps)'....FRA and associated control measures to prevent ignition would not give reasonable grounds to believe a fire would start... Lets examine this a little further. If we are stating that there are no reasonable grounds to believe a fire would start, equally the same statement must be true irrespective of the time of day. In that case, why would a fire exit be provided at all? The completion of a fire risk assessment and implementation of counter measures does not eliminate a probability of fire. 'He/She has reasonable grounds to believe non lawful visitors may come into his/her premises or property........(reason for providing the shutters in the first instance)'.....by providing security measures against unlawful entry I would say the occupier would not reasonably believe non lawful members may come into the premises. The debate within the post concerns the provision of roller shutters at exit doors. In order to prevent entry it would be necessary to provide shutters at each and every means of entry windows, skylights etc. Even then this does not totally eliminate the possibility that a non lawful visitor could gain entry. 'The risk to the tresspasser is one in which he/she can reasonably provide protection........ (a readily op enable means of escape)'.....reasonable protection has already been provided by providing security measures against unlawful entry in the first place.

Posted By D. Hilton Shaun the risk of fire is not necessarily greater during multiple occupation. It is all dependent on the nature and activities associated with the premises, which is why the provision of a roller shutter door at a means of emergency egress is not a black and white issue, it has to be satisfactorily addressed within the FRA and this would also have to take into account OLA and non lawful visitors of any type. Also, the use of roller shutter door could have an impact on the individual responsible for opening the shutter door at the start of the day, or may impact security personnel on patrol. As I have said, it is not necessarily a black and white issue but must be considered and appropriately assessed.

Posted By John Packer IMHO if you have done all that is reasonably practicible to prevent entry to an unauthorised person then you have discharged your duty of care towards them

Posted By Elfy Tumbleweed. I would avoid installing the roller shutters if at all possible as you are simply introducing an additional and potential hazard. I would speak with the local fire & rescue service for advice and also with a security specialist to see if you could introduce a more secure door. If you introduce the shutters however do make sure your control measures are watertight to ensure the shutters are open when anyone is in the building, including contractors, cleaners and anyone else that may arrive outside of the office core hours. Personally I wouldn't sleep that well with shutters fitted knowing I had to trust human behaviour to ensure they were opened / closed at the correct times. Good luck with whichever choice you make.

Posted By John Packer Steve, You've obviously lost the plot ;) You forgot to mention smearing excrement on to the tips of the spikes.

Posted By Crim Hi Sean, Intersting comment you made there, like you I spent some time in the fire safety dept. and agree with your comments to a degree, however I like to think I was better than fireman Sam as you probably do yourself? I do beieve I know more now than I did way back then - new regulations, fire risk assessment etc. I use the local fire safety officer as a sounding board, this is extremely useful as he lets me know little snippits of information that I find are helpful to me. The fire officer I currently communicate with does audits of businesses fire risk assessments and he has reviewed mine recently, it is good for me to know what they are looking for.